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Wrote this 2 years or so ago. Found it on BBing.com

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  • Wrote this 2 years or so ago. Found it on BBing.com

    "So … you can consider the premise of this blog as thinking outside of the box and simply questioning what you know and what you have been told, taught, thought was written in stone, etc.. I am sure this will surprise some people but … I am simply going to think out loud and put my thoughts to text. I am not even going to say that I believe what I am about to write but that I am merely thinking … outside … of the … box. Why? Because only a fool would think he has it all figured out and I didn’t get to where I am by listening to other people. Rather, I got to where I am by questioning EVERYTHING. I encourage you all to do the same. Here goes …..

    What if getting bigger had everything to do with your genetics and nothing to do with how you train? What if training your ass off was actually keeping you overtrained and not growing as well as if you trained like a pussy? What if strength progression had nothing to do with muscular growth? Or maybe it is related but …. nowhere near the end-all-be-all that we think it is? What if form had little to do with progress in the gym? Oh, my mind can be a ****ed up place, sometimes. Let me break it down to a more simple context so that I can keep my thoughts as simple as possible.

    We all know that genetics plays a huge roll in how tall you will get, how muscular you will get, how lean you can get, how well your structure allows for you to bodybuild, etc.. What if how you trained played little to no role in how efficiently you grew? Think about it: We have all seen a pro at some point train like **** and …. he is huge. Yet, we have all seen hundreds if not thousands of people train with great form and never look terribly impressive. Haven’t you seen a guy with huge legs, be it a pro or not, that doesn’t squat to parallel or below? I have seen skinny dudes squat their asses off and still have skinny legs. I have seen guys that squat twice what I squat and their legs suck yet mine are pretty damned good and my numbers would seem, by most, to be pretty sad. I will also add that steroids are on both sides of this equation as I have seen guys loaded to the gills on gear and they still suck while some of the best pros in the world are on less than most guys at your average state show. The steroid card can’t be played here.

    Genetically speaking, haven’t you seen someone that can eat pretty much whatever they want to and stay lean yet someone else can damned near starve themselves and never even come close to being ripped? Women are almost always able to get ripped abs and a ripped back but their hamstrings and glutes can still be soft. How much does your genetic potential play into how lean you are going to get no matter the diet??

    Isn’t it possible that form means very little in as far as results or growth are concerned? I think we can all agree that good form is the best proactive way to stay injury free but …. that has little to do with growth. When I say form I am also talking about rep speed, balance from left to right, bouncing, loose form, etc.. Think it’s possible? What about dieting? What if there is no difference in whether you go low carb, low fat or even low protein? We all believe that protein is an essential nutrient for growth and that protein needs to be high. What if it doesn’t need to be? I have seen people grow on very low amounts of protein. I remember competing as a natural middleweight when I was 22 and only eating 25g of protein per meal for 5 meals a day (along with carbs and some fat) and was in great shape. Dave Palumbo gets people ripped on low carbs and Chris Aceto gets guys ripped on low fat. I get people ripped after eating a day’s worth of waffles every week. What if it was more genetically related than it was the actual dieting protocol that you are using? Just sayin’.

    I see guys train hard all the time and I have seen this for years. I have also observed that some of these guys are pretty big and, yet, some look the same year after year. In fact, some of the hardest training people I have seen were nowhere near the national level let alone a pro. When I say that I want to reiterate that the majority of guys that train balls out are nobodies when it comes to competing. At the same time, a HIGH percentage of the guys that I know that don’t train hard, at all, are huge and strong as hell. Seems odd to me so I wonder why? Do the guys that train harder than everyone else overtrain more or are most times in an overtrained state? That would explain them not growing much, right? At the same time, that same ideology would explain why the big guys are growing like crazy – they don’t have recovery issues because they are hardly ever overtrained. Maybe training like a pussy actually pays off. Wouldn’t that be a bitch? It might suck but …. isn’t it at least POSSIBLE? Speaking for myself I would say that my arms took off with new growth when I decided that I would train them less because they were a strong point and I wanted to give other body parts more of my recovery time and leave my arms to only a few sets at the end of my workouts. They inexplicably grew to the point that I was getting compliments on my arms all the time. When people asked me what I did for them I would just smile and say “you wouldn’t believe me if I told you”. I wouldn’t tell them, either. Why? They would have instantly had me pegged as an “easy gainer” and that was about as far from the truth as possible. Training less and growing more… hmmm…..

    What about progression? What part does that play? Maybe progression doesn’t do ****, either, and is highly overrated. I mean, I have added 100 pounds to my bench and my chest still sucks. At the same time, those damned arms haven’t curled over a 100 pound barbell in 4 years and yet have grown tremendously. I was going over old log books this month and noticed that some of my biggest poundages were all the way back in 2001. Umm… I have grown quite a bit since 2001 and yet some of my weights aren’t anywhere near what they were that year. A few are but the large majority haven’t ever been what they were that year. I was curling 135 for some cheat reps in 1996 at a fat 200 pounds. I now compete at 198 and it is all I can do to get to that weight to compete and I can’t curl anywhere near that right now. My arms are likely over 2 inches bigger now than they were then. What gives? Kinda blows the progression idea out of the water, at least for me. I use myself as an example but ask yourself about your weights and how long you have been training? Does my situation apply to you, as well? I know MANY seasoned competitors that this is their story, as well. Just sayin’.

    What if time under tension played a huge roll or a bigger roll than progression? What if none of it mattered but as long as you trained and used those muscles consistently and let them recover you would keep growing? Does a barbell really make you bigger than a machine? I could tell you of one pro that did pretty much 95% of his contest prep training on nothing but machines. Yeah, yeah, he’s a pro. That just backs up my point, though, so thank you.

    I ask you to ask these questions because I am not sure that the little things matter as much as we may think they do. We tend to over-complicate things that don’t need to be over-complicated. This game may be incredibly simple: use your muscles, let them rest, grow and repeat. Instead, we are doing muscle biopsies to see if leg extensions work the fibers harder than a squat. Really? Why not just do them both? My point isn’t even to think out of the box, really. It is just to think for YOURSELF. Come to your own conclusions as you try to figure out what works for you and what doesn’t. Don’t hold onto something because someone said “that is the way to do it”. I tell my clients all the time to question me and never to feel as if they can’t ask me why. Paying someone doesn’t mean you do what they say without asking why or questioning them. Quite the opposite, really: You are paying them so they damned sure better explain things to you and because they are getting paid they should listen to your questions and answer them. Again, I am not using this blog to throw my opinions out there on what I just blogged about. I’m …… just sayin’. "

    Ken "Skip" Hill


    Facebook: Skip Hill
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  • #2
    Damn good post! Thanks for reporting this.
    "Only God can Judge me." -Tupac

    My Journal- http://www.intensemuscle.com/38062-eye-tiger.html

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    • #3
      Nostalgia. I remember reading this 2 years ago. Thinking outside the box and questioning is excellent advice that most people never adhere to. Blind stubbornness is so prevalent in bodybuilding/strength training. Something I try to do is not think of workouts in terms of sets and reps, but in creating an environment in which my muscles respond.

      Comment


      • #4
        "I get people ripped after eating a day’s worth of waffles every week."

        I think you should reword this sentence to say something along the lines of ''I get people ripped by eating a months worth of waffles in one day.''

        Great read
        :preach:

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        • #5
          The birth of the term, "Just sayin'."!!!!
          Max Muscle
          5020 Katella Ave.
          Los Alamitos, CA 90720
          www.MaxMuscleLosAlamitos.com

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          • #6
            Great! Thanks for posting this Skip! Thats pretty much how I look at things now, just get in there, train and eat, everything else will fall into its place. I had to have read this a couple years back when you wrote it.

            The forum looks great and I hope all has been well with you, your family, and business.

            -MM
            "BBing should be a lifetime pursuit or are you are missing the point . Make that in your plans from the very begining .Take it as far as you wish [ and genetics will allow ] , but don't miss what bbing is suposed to be about .Or you really will be missing out ....." - IABADMAN


            Use JSB982 as your discount code at trueprotein.com and recieve 5% discount on all orders.


            http://www.nastrongmaninc.com/pdf/entries/bsform.pdf = link to strongman comp augest 8th in norfolk, va

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            • #7
              Originally posted by MilitaryMuscle View Post
              Great! Thanks for posting this Skip! Thats pretty much how I look at things now, just get in there, train and eat, everything else will fall into its place. I had to have read this a couple years back when you wrote it.

              The forum looks great and I hope all has been well with you, your family, and business.

              -MM
              Holy crap, you're alive!

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              • #8
                No shit, are you back or what? Great to see you here!

                Skip


                Facebook: Skip Hill
                Instagram: @intensemuscle
                YouTube: TEAMSKIP
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                For Training Inquiries: [email protected]

                Use discount code "SKIP" and get your TEAM SKIP protein here: www.TrueNutrition.com/TEAMSKIPblend

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                • #9
                  So what did you do in the last few years training wise to make such size increases if strength was not increased?

                  Was it specifically training related, or were higher dosages of supplements used?


                  Personally I have only ever gotten bigger when I got stronger, but from a longevity standpoint it would be nice to find another way.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pumped340 View Post
                    So what did you do in the last few years training wise to make such size increases if strength was not increased?

                    Was it specifically training related, or were higher dosages of supplements used?


                    Personally I have only ever gotten bigger when I got stronger, but from a longevity standpoint it would be nice to find another way.
                    It wasn't the last few years as much as I made the point that 10 years ago I was stronger than I am now but clearly bigger now than I was.

                    The point of the article was more to question how much your progress with SIZE is related to things like strength gains vs. simply your genetic potential to just train hard, recover and keep growing.

                    I mean, you do realize that not everyone subscribes to the "you must get stronger to get bigger" philosophy, right? A lot of people tend to think that strength is simply a progressive by-product of continued weight training, getting bigger and improved coordination and efficiency in doing the exercise.

                    Think about the most obvious reason as to why strength might not be related: When your strength doesn't go up anymore, do you just not get any bigger?

                    Ask Phil Heath how heavy he trains today vs. 5 or 7 years ago. It was Jay that told him to settle his ass down asking "do you want to injure yourself and end your career?"

                    As many pros you can name that train heavy I can name just as many that don't. Start with Phil and Jay, go to Kai and Lee Labrada for a start. How does Phil continue to grow?

                    Drugs help but it isn't the reason that I continued to grow and it isn't the reason that Phil continues to grow. If it was, the game would be to just take more and more and that would work but if you know anything about the game, that is not how it works.

                    Skip


                    Facebook: Skip Hill
                    Instagram: @intensemuscle
                    YouTube: TEAMSKIP
                    TikTok: @intensemuscle


                    For Training Inquiries: [email protected]

                    Use discount code "SKIP" and get your TEAM SKIP protein here: www.TrueNutrition.com/TEAMSKIPblend

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                    • #11
                      I still think growth is all about progression. However, there are far more ways to progress on exercises than pure strength. It just so happens that initially the most effective method of progression for almost everyone is strength progression.
                      Ph.D., Theoretical Physics '16
                      kind of a douche

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sammich View Post
                        I still think growth is all about progression. However, there are far more ways to progress on exercises than pure strength. It just so happens that initially the most effective method of progression for almost everyone is strength progression.
                        Initially, I agree. But is that because there is really no other way for a newbie to really measure progress at such an early stage? I mean, they can't generate the intensity needed to really push that end of the spectrum, right?

                        I am talking more about after you have tapped a good portion of your strength, there is still plenty of room to grow based on other methods of training, I believe.

                        Skip


                        Facebook: Skip Hill
                        Instagram: @intensemuscle
                        YouTube: TEAMSKIP
                        TikTok: @intensemuscle


                        For Training Inquiries: [email protected]

                        Use discount code "SKIP" and get your TEAM SKIP protein here: www.TrueNutrition.com/TEAMSKIPblend

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                        • #13
                          I did it backwards-I got big, now I'm trying to get strong. :/
                          You're perfect, yes it's true. But without me...you're only you.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ken "Skip" Hill View Post
                            It wasn't the last few years as much as I made the point that 10 years ago I was stronger than I am now but clearly bigger now than I was.

                            The point of the article was more to question how much your progress with SIZE is related to things like strength gains vs. simply your genetic potential to just train hard, recover and keep growing.

                            I mean, you do realize that not everyone subscribes to the "you must get stronger to get bigger" philosophy, right? A lot of people tend to think that strength is simply a progressive by-product of continued weight training, getting bigger and improved coordination and efficiency in doing the exercise.

                            Think about the most obvious reason as to why strength might not be related: When your strength doesn't go up anymore, do you just not get any bigger?

                            Ask Phil Heath how heavy he trains today vs. 5 or 7 years ago. It was Jay that told him to settle his ass down asking "do you want to injure yourself and end your career?"

                            As many pros you can name that train heavy I can name just as many that don't. Start with Phil and Jay, go to Kai and Lee Labrada for a start. How does Phil continue to grow?

                            Drugs help but it isn't the reason that I continued to grow and it isn't the reason that Phil continues to grow. If it was, the game would be to just take more and more and that would work but if you know anything about the game, that is not how it works.

                            Skip
                            This is something I have tried to figure out for years to be honest. In my experience, when I see natural bodybuilders, the only time these guys are actually getting bigger is when they are stronger. Sure some say "I'm so much bigger this year even though I'm lifting less" but pictures show this to be subjective and generally incorrect. So yes, this fact has made me think that with the pros it comes down to just using higher and higher dosages. Generally it seems a higher dosage supports a higher level of muscle.

                            Definitely not at all saying this is completely true, and I'd love to hear people's insights on this. Personally, I have kept logs for the last 5 years of my training, measurements, etc. And I have only ever been bigger when I have been stronger. Chest bigger than it was 2 years ago? Incline benching 30lb more for 6 reps than before. Arms bigger than a year ago? Curling and close grip benching 20lb more for reps than before. Etc

                            Again I'd love to find other ways, since we cannot get stronger forever and even at my young age I am suffering multiple injuries, but trying the other methods that don't focus on strength on main exercises has never gotten me anywhere.

                            And as for the OP, I completely agree that genetics is hugely important. Few things bug me as much as people telling me I should just listen to the huge black guy in my gym, for example, because he must know what he is doing since he is so huge, yet this same guy has been huge since I knew him in high school and generally just does whatever his unimpressive coach tells him.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ken "Skip" Hill View Post
                              I am talking more about after you have tapped a good portion of your strength, there is still plenty of room to grow based on other methods of training, I believe.

                              Skip
                              Could you possibly go into a little detail about these 'other methods'? I have tried high volume methods like John Meadows routine switching up exercises often, just 'feeling' the muscles but still pushing extremely hard, etc but still only got bigger when I was getting stronger on the main lifts.

                              For example I may have added front squats with continuous tension and partial reps as my 3rd exercise for 3x10x185 then got that to 3x10x215, but when going back to putting it first my PR was still 3x315 and therefore my legs were pretty much the same

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