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Staying lean and eating clean vs. EAT BIG/GET BIG!!! Settle this...

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  • DCBliever
    replied
    Originally posted by Gohan View Post
    ha! the original post is 7 years old!! And we still don't have a lock down on the answer! Guess all of us meat heads will be debating this for many more decades to come along with split v/s total body, low carb v/s high carb, functional training v/s machines.. blah blah blah..
    It comes down to whatever works for you, if ten ways get you to where you want to be is one wrong? It's which ever route is acceptable to you, maybe I want to get muscular and stay lean so it takes me 20 years and you want to go the big fat guy route and lean down and it takes you 10 years. Is either way wrong if we are ok with the fact we know it'll take us the alotted time? What is there to debate? Pick a goal, find a means to an end and give it hell.

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  • Gohan
    replied
    ha! the original post is 7 years old!! And we still don't have a lock down on the answer! Guess all of us meat heads will be debating this for many more decades to come along with split v/s total body, low carb v/s high carb, functional training v/s machines.. blah blah blah..

    Leave a comment:


  • MutantX
    replied
    Originally posted by Gohan View Post
    Thank you for bumping this!
    I have a Q for Skip.
    Are you changing your answer after a few more years of experience under you?

    What about a skinny fat guy who wants to get big and muscular? Lose fat 1st or just pile on the size? eg.:A 30 year old who can only bench 225 for reps, 14 inch arms and also carries 25% fat.

    I went through some of Dante's old (actually ancient) posts and he recommends the opposite:
    "Want to know the fastest way to walk around at 250 ripped--THE ABSOLUTELY G'DAMN FASTEST WAY TO GET THERE? TAKE 2 YEARS AND EAT HUGE AMOUNTS OF FOOD, AND TRAIN WITH BRUTALLY HEAVY WEIGHTS, AND BECOME A BIG FAT OFFENSIVE LINEMAN LOOKING GUY AT 330LBS....AND NO IT WONT BE PRETTY...AT ALL. MOST OF ALL DONT DO ANYTHING THAT COULD POSSIBLY EVEN IMPEDE THE SLIGHTEST IN MUSCLE MASS GAIN. Just eat copious amounts of food (up to 500-600 grams of protein) and bring your bodyweight up the charts which will allow you leverage and strength gains to allow you use the incredible weights you have to use in the gym to accomplish this. Then after being at that level for density reasons for awhile, you can slowly take it down and I mean slowly and most likely have the most muscle mass gain your genetics allowed in that time frame. That is the probably the fastest way in the shortest time to get there."
    I would also be interested in peoples thoughts on this

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  • ShinjiG
    replied
    Skip didn't really answer, he was merely playing devils advocate with whichever answer people didn't pick so those that said no could see both sides equally.

    I'd have to say no generally speaking. In order for it to be yes, you'd have to know all of the variables to make it optimum. Such as knowing exactly where your metabolic rate is, knowing exactly how much your muscles have torn and need to be repaired and giving the body exactly what it needs to do it without fat gain. Without knowing those exact numbers you'd be guessing along somewhere slightly above your preceived maintainence levels. Just enough extra calories, and proteins to rebuild those muscles exactly right. However since everyone is different, there is no way to know exactly where people are. Much less for a broad convention for the masses to follow. It'd be simpler to eat more in general and then cut.

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  • Gohan
    replied
    Thank you for bumping this!
    I have a Q for Skip.
    Are you changing your answer after a few more years of experience under you?

    What about a skinny fat guy who wants to get big and muscular? Lose fat 1st or just pile on the size? eg.:A 30 year old who can only bench 225 for reps, 14 inch arms and also carries 25% fat.

    I went through some of Dante's old (actually ancient) posts and he recommends the opposite:
    "Want to know the fastest way to walk around at 250 ripped--THE ABSOLUTELY G'DAMN FASTEST WAY TO GET THERE? TAKE 2 YEARS AND EAT HUGE AMOUNTS OF FOOD, AND TRAIN WITH BRUTALLY HEAVY WEIGHTS, AND BECOME A BIG FAT OFFENSIVE LINEMAN LOOKING GUY AT 330LBS....AND NO IT WONT BE PRETTY...AT ALL. MOST OF ALL DONT DO ANYTHING THAT COULD POSSIBLY EVEN IMPEDE THE SLIGHTEST IN MUSCLE MASS GAIN. Just eat copious amounts of food (up to 500-600 grams of protein) and bring your bodyweight up the charts which will allow you leverage and strength gains to allow you use the incredible weights you have to use in the gym to accomplish this. Then after being at that level for density reasons for awhile, you can slowly take it down and I mean slowly and most likely have the most muscle mass gain your genetics allowed in that time frame. That is the probably the fastest way in the shortest time to get there."

    Leave a comment:


  • devodev
    replied
    This hasn't been bumped in a long time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Richard85
    replied
    but if you gain a little bit of fat while gaining muscle your b/f % would stay the same, so you would practically look the same except being bigger? please correct me if I am wrong

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  • bouncer dave
    replied
    bump.
    skips answer is a must read

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  • legaljuicer
    replied
    a good read....I am already researching my off season diet for after this contest.....It made sense...I usually quit the cardio in the off season...What the hell do I know???? less than I thought....A good read bro

    Leave a comment:


  • The13ig13adWolf
    replied
    i voted yes, however i don't believe it's possible without gaining any fat whatsoever. keeping fat gain very minimal i believe is 100% doable to achieve optimal LBM.

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  • pnutbutter81
    replied
    Quads should have some veins visible that might not be pronounced when not training but that jump up pretty well when training or doing cardio or after a meal or having sex with your wife's girlfriend.
    SKip,
    Many strong points indeed. I always respect them because you back them up with facts or strong physical evidence. I think you help clean out the myths. But, I'm thoroughly impressed that you somehow incorporate the funniest shit ever. No offense taken to the cursing.

    Leave a comment:


  • fiffer
    replied
    Skip,
    When we pick things back up again with the prep i'll be sure to be under 10%.

    Leave a comment:


  • dellsguy67
    replied
    awesome post skip - i had to read the "having sex with your wife's girlfriend" line about 4 times until i caught it correctly.

    otherwise, nice points made overall

    Leave a comment:


  • wakejump4me
    replied
    Skip , thank you for giving your thoughts and i greatly appreciated it........not only because i agree with you but also that you brought a lot of good points across and also backed it all up very well . and i also have learned a new word called pigfat.............danke schön

    wake

    Leave a comment:


  • Ken "Skip" Hill
    replied
    Oh boy, where to start? .....

    First, I am not coming in here to "enlighten" anyone or throw my opinion out as the last word or anything like that at all. I just wanted to get a good debate going and then chime in later with my opinions. As alot of you know, I prefer to debate the other side whether I truly believe it or not, sometimes, just to get dialogue going and make people think and question everything that they may just simply assume is factual. Debate is good and if I give my opinion first, alot of times I don't much of a debate. That isn't much fun. : )

    That being said, there are alot of good responses in this thread, in my opinion, and show that there are a ton of different variables that contribute to how well individuals gain mass in the offseason. My point of making everyone question their methods for gaining mass is that I do NOT believe that excess bodyfat is needed for optimum growth. What is excess bodyfat? As stated earlier, this is going to be different for every person but I can assure you that most of us are holding more bodyfat than we need for optimum growth. Do some have valid reasons for doing this? Sure. Does EVERYONE have a valid reason. Nope.

    One of the things that bothers me the most about guys wanting to put on size is that they will do damned near anything that it takes in the gym (or at least claim to) but yet with something so incredibly easy to do, like eating, they fuck it all up. I say "easy" because it isn't painful to eat. It doesn't burn when you eat clean food. You don't feel as if your heart is going to explode out of your chest while in the middle of a meal. Eating the correct foods at the correct times is an exercise in control that alot of people, most people in fact, have a very difficult time with. There seems to be this machismo attitude around who can eat the most food or the biggest burger as if this somehow relates to your size or superior manhood. I don't get that part of it - even though I want to be clear that I am not at all against eating big, per se. However, there is a big difference between eating big as hell to get big as hell and eating big as hell and looking like a fucking pigfat. That's right, I said pigfat. This is my board and I can and will make up words if I feel like it. As in most other things in the world of bodybuilding "eating big to get big" usually gets taken far to literally just like everything else. Example: "You must be depleted coming into the last week before a show". Translated by your typical bodybuilder: "I must barely be able to walk, not be able to wipe my ass out of sheer exhaustion and have flies landing on my eyelids or I am not depleted enough". This is only one example that shows bodybuilders usually take things much too far when they are told that something needs to be done.

    Well, Skip, so at what level do you think is optimal for gaining muscle? I won't even go there with a number. Why? Because as soon as you give a bodybuilder a number, he will argue with you because when you get too black and white with something that is so indivdual, someone always argues with you. I will say this: In the offseason, given that you already have an average level of muscle mass, you should have a couple things going if you are at a decent bodyfat level and still be able to grow like nothing else:

    You should have clear abs. Clear abs mean you can see all heads with obvious lines between each. You should have clear intercostals to the point of being able to count them without having to squint like you are looking through a pane of glass, smeared with fat. Quads should have some veins visible that might not be pronounced when not training but that jump up pretty well when training or doing cardio or after a meal or having sex with your wife's girlfriend. The quad heads should be obvious and have lines between them just as your abs should. You should not have love handles that protrude from the back of your pants even though your boyfriend insists on these so he can "hang on" when the riding gets rough. You should not have a chest/nipple area that gives your training partner a hard on. This equates to ABOUT a true 10%, give or take a percent. Can guys gain at less than 10%? Yes. However, as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, it takes much more planning and the diet needs to be very accurate and that much more calculated.

    Most guys want to make the offseason as uncomplicated as possible and/or some want to lead a more "normal" lifestyle in the offseason and weighing everything out and measuring everything is not something they want to do. That is fine BUT.... don't let that be the reason that you say you can't gain with a lower amount of bodyfat. If you say you don't WANT to do what it takes to keep your bodyfat lower, that is fine but be honest. I have 4 kids who like to eat other things than oatmeal and chicken breast and I hate to measure everything out all year long. However, because of the "more is better" mindset in the offseason, I find myself getting fatter and fatter if I don't measure things out. So, I have little choice. I either get fat and don't keep as close of track of things or I do measure and keep my bodyfat under control.

    Over-eating or eating more than is necessary is the easiest way to make sure you are growing, more often than not. No question there but the only real way to tell how much you are growing is by your strength increases because you sure as hell can't go by bodyweight and MOST people do. Honestly, I think most guys think that when they are lean they think their gains are less because there bodyweight doesn't go up as much as when they are not staying lean and that is just short of retarded. Weight gained does not equate to muscle gained. The point I am making is this: What is the difference between gaining 10 pounds in 2 months if 2 pounds of it is muscle vs. the other guy that stays leaner, looks like a bodybuilder instead of a bloated "big guy" and gains only 4 pounds of bodyweight but 2 pounds of it is muscle? The truth is, guys, that the bigger, more muscular guys that do DC training look like bigger, muscular guys in the offseason unless they too fall into the more is better category but for the vast majority of guys in the pound trying to gain weight, I would BET that most of you are less than impressive looking in the offseason because you don't carry enough muscle to show through the fat that you are carrying. By this I mean that most probably don't look like bodybuilders at all. I mean NO disrespect when I say this, hell, I am not terribly impressive when I was in offseason mode, either. My point is that wouldn't you like to still look like a bodybuilder in the offseason and be healthier at the same time while almost certainly making the same gains??

    From the dieting end of things I am not saying to start restricting calories and tearing off the bodyfat. I am saying to very slowly, over time, get the bodyfat levels down so that you can keep growing in the meantime and if you don't know how to do it correctly, either learn or pay someone to teach you.

    *I sometimes surprise people with my fees but I think it is funny that my fees seem so high yet my fees would be covered pretty easily by the amount you would save on your grocery bill every month, probably - and that is not just my fees, that is DCs or whomever you might work with*

    You still would keep calories high but make sure to do the cardio and make sure to eat clean. Always take in as many calories as you can while still allowing yourself to slowly lean down.

    For those that want to debate this, great. There are exceptions to everything: There are the guys that can't seem to get fat no matter what. Obiously, I am not talking about them in this post. I can back up my end of things because time and time again I have guys getting stronger even during contest prep and that is certainly the extreme end of dieting. I have client after client that gets leaner while getting bigger in the offseason and I have done it and continue to do it, myself. I am down 40+ pounds and putting up just as big of numbers as I was a year ago in the offseason. You can make great gains while keeping bodyfat low or dropping bodyfat slowly. DC says the same thing and does this with alot of his clients, too. The ones that get fat are the ones that take it to an extreme and overdue the eating and/or don't do the cardio.

    Oh, and one note that stood out from an earlier post: It isn't excess calories that keep your joints feeling great and "lubed" up. It is when your dietary fat is where it should be. Your joints shouldn't hurt while dieting or get "dry". If they do, your diet is not correct.

    Also, this post might seem fragmented because I am busier than hell today so I type some and then come back to it and then type some, etc.. I will jump back in here throughout the day when I can to respond.

    Skip

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