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  • Advanced Widowmaker sets

    I have always followed the core 3 day DC split, without the obvious widowmaker being for quads. However, I have seen some training logs with people using widowmakers in order to bring up a lagging bodypart(s). Has anyone seen any huge difference by doing this? I am trying to stick to the basic plan as long as possible and just progress without changing things too much (except exercises). Any feedback or thoughts on results with adding widowmakers to other bodyparts?

  • #2
    Found a good explanation from years ago, so this is what I am referencing. I was thinking about doing this for my triceps, but again to Dante's point I think I should just focus on the basics: Here is what I got from an older thread:

    (READ ABOUT WIDOWMAKING)
    khan gave me his 3 favorite exercises and I wanted him to pick an exercise that he felt worked really good for him (which was flat dumbell presses)

    THIS IS GOING TO BE PRETTY BASIC---JUST LIKE BACK THICKNESS AND LEGS i WANT YOU TO DO 2 WORKING EXERCISE SETS FOR CHEST-

    I WANT YOU TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS EVERY TIME CHEST COMES ABOUT

    FIRST CHEST DAY
    A)INCLINE SMYTHE (AFTER WARMUPS OBVIOUSLY AND THE SAME GOES FOR EVERYTHING BELOW)---FOR 11-15 REPS REST PAUSE
    AND THEN AFTER A REST (WHATEVER REST YOU NEED TO GO ALL OUT 3-5 MINUTES) THEN YOU DO
    FLAT DUMBELL PRESS WITH CHEST HELD VERY HIGH AND STERNUM RAISED FOR A STRAIGHT SET OF 20-30 REPS TO FAILURE---I WANT YOU TO GO DEEP INTO THE STRETCH ON THESE AND DO THEM REALLY STRICT AND DEEP

    NEXT CHEST DAY
    B) DECLINE SMYTHE (NOT MY FAVORITE EXERCISE BUT THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL BECAUSE YOUR GOING TO PICK YOUR OWN EXERCISES) FOR 11-15RP
    AND THEN AFTER A REST
    THE FLAT DUMBELL PRESS AGAIN FOR STRAIGHT SET FOR 20-30 REPS TO FAILURE SLIGHTLY HEAVIER OR FOR SLIGHTLY MORE REPS THAN LAST TIME

    NEXT CHEST DAY
    C) MACHINE CHEST PRESS SEATED (HYPOTHETICAL) FOR 11-15RP AND THEN FLAT DUMBELL PRESS TO FAILURE AGAIN LIKE ABOVE BUT SLIGHTLY HEAVIER OR MORE REPS

    NOW YOU DONT HAVE TO USE FLAT DUMBELL PRESS YOU CAN USE ANY EXERCISE YOU FEEL IS KEY FOR YOU--BUT WHAT YOU DO IS HAMMER THAT THING EVERY CHEST WORKOUT--EVERY SINGLE ONE WITH AN ALL OUT STRAIGHT SET UNTIL YOU CANNOT IMPROVE ON IT ANYMORE IN CHEST WORKOUTS AND THEN YOU MOVE ONTO ANOTHER CHEST EXERCISE STRAIGHT SETTED AND DO THE SAME THING WITH IT

    OF COURSE EXTREME STRETCHING WITH ALL OF THE ABOVE

    NOW THAT KEY EXERCISE YOU CAN DO ALOT OF THINGS WITH IT---KHAN COULD TAKE THE FLAT DUMBELL PRESSES AND REALLY WORK INTO THEM UNTIL HE STARTS WITH 30 REPS TO FAILURE AND SLOWLY OVER TIME (MONTHS)--MAKES IT ALL THE WAY UP THE DUMBELL RACK AND ALL THE WAY DOWN TO 8 REPS TO FAILURE. AT THAT TIME WHERE HE IS TAPPED OUT ON THAT KEY EXERCISE HE PUTS ANOTHER KEY EXERCISE IN THERE INSTEAD OF THE FLAT PRESSES, LETS SAY HYPOTHETICALLY PARAMOUNT MACHINE INCLINE PRESSES (ANYTHING THAT HE FEELS IS A KEY EXERCISE FOR HIM) AND DOES THE SAME THING--ALWAYS STARTING WITH A STRAIGHT SET FOR 20 REPS (PLUS) RANGE AND WORKING UP IN WEIGHTS AND DOWN WITH REPS OVER TIME

    So thats how its done guys if someone felt the need to get their chest up. And the penance for doing that is you give up frequency of other bodyparts hit. Here is where the problems are with all this weak bodypart stuff. Alot of guys think their chest is weak and actually they are fat fucks who dont do cardio and carb cuttoffs and have fat drooping all over the place and think they have weak pecs. Take the fat off and you might just see you have alot more there than you thought. Alot of young guys think they have weak arms because they look at them all the time but dont look down and see that those very same arms match the very same effort and size that their legs and lats and other bodyparts have. You cant have 21 inch arms on a kid who is 190lbs! Get overall bigger and stronger and everything will come along with it, so stop staring at your arms all the time and start becoming a bodybuilder (overall) Let me bottom line it for you before you think there is some magical underhanded cable crossover one handed pushdown exercise with an isolated 30lbs that you think is going to magically transform your triceps.
    The day you can do full bottom to top range tricep dips with 4 45's hanging from your dip belt for 20, or the day you can close grip 405lbs for 20 or the day you can reverse grip 405 for 20 on the smythe, your going to have the biggest triceps your unique genetics allow.
    No one handed rope pulldown at a 45 degree angle bullshit exercise that you can use for 40lbs and 15 reps this week and 45lbs for 16 reps a year from now is going to get you there....so choose your path wisely in all this. Im not going to answer alot of questions that come after this post because Im a little burnt out on all things bodybuilding and Im trying to recharge
    DIET:
    I dont go into diet much because I save that for my trainees--I give alot of this away but the real details go to those guys. Basically for people with appetite probs I have them using olive oil to get past plateaus--a good diet that leaves someone stagnant from the previous 4 week weigh in can be changed dramatically by just adding olive oil to protein fat meals (i like to keep protien fats and protein carb meals separated)--Olive oil is a good fat with awesome health benefits along with being 118cals per tablespoon--Just adding 3 tablespoons in two nocarb protein shakes a day gives a person 700 more calories a day to work with on the exact same eating they had done previously---but the scale will say 8lbs more next month


    STRETCHES:
    "Stretching:

    CHEST: Flat bench 90lb dumbbells chest high--lungs full of air-- I drop down into the deepest flye I can for the first 10 seconds or so with my lungs full of air and chest out---then staying there I arch my back slightly and try to press my sternum upward --this is absolutely excruciating--the rest of the 60 seconds I try to concentrate on dropping my elbows even farther down (I try to but I don’t think they are going any lower--LOL)---the last 15 seconds I’m pretty much shaking like a leaf, I have tears in my eyes and I think about dropping bodybuilding and becoming a tap dancer on Broadway (ok that parts not true)--My opinion is people should use dumbbells that are a little over half of what your heaviest set of 6-8 reps would be. I cant state this enough--extreme stretching royally sucks!!! Its painful. But I have seen amazing things with people -especially in the quads.

    Comment


    • #3
      Good to see the info
      Always nice to read dc

      Yes
      I have especially with the lateral raise machine
      And the preachers with straight bar with enhanced stretch

      The stretch is KEY
      The bio mechanical advantage/disadvantage is important
      And the ability to grind is critical though
      And something that's not joint destructive is critical

      I tried some cable shit for triceps didn't do well for progression even though I liked the pumps
      Tried some things in past like French presses upright rows that didn't go well as the repetitive motion aggravated tendinitis

      but a well placed
      Strategically picked widow will be a huge difference maker
      Last edited by DC_catholic315; 12-04-2015, 01:33 PM.
      I see you didn't take a s#!t before deadlifting....
      I too like to live dangerously

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DC_catholic315 View Post
        Good to see the info
        Always nice to read dc

        Yes
        I have especially with the lateral raise machine
        And the preachers with straight bar with enhanced stretch

        The stretch is KEY
        The bio mechanical advantage/disadvantage is important
        And the ability to grind is critical though
        And something that's not joint destructive is critical

        I tried some cable shit for triceps didn't do well for progression even though I liked the pumps
        Tried some things in past like French presses upright rows that didn't go well as the repetitive motion aggravated tendinitis

        but a well placed
        Strategically picked widow will be a huge difference maker
        Thanks for the feedback. That is what I am thinking, STRATEGICALLY placed and picked. I honestly think I would be better served just sticking to the basics right now. Because I have just started full blown DC 8 weeks ago after taking a couple of years off the full split. If I feel the need to in a few months I will use this info in all it's glory! I am trying to not overdo it but it is good to know there is some DC approved gameplan.

        Comment


        • #5
          Plus I agree wholeheartedly with the STRETCH you are stressing on the bicep movement. I try and do this with most my movements. If you read the old DC manuals or whatever, it stresses a slow negative and a more explosive controlled positive. I am paraphrasing, but I think Dante mentioned something like: "Get to the point where you are lifting the weight just to focus on lowering it effectively." I think this principle is lost with a lot of people. We get so obsessed with adding weight and reps that proper form and mind muscle connection with the reps are lost. Just my 2 cents.

          Comment


          • #6
            I def agree
            My partner and I have a tempo for our main sets
            And our widowmakers

            We Count them out

            What specifically do u want to get from the widowmaker

            Meaning bodyparts, what they need etc
            I see you didn't take a s#!t before deadlifting....
            I too like to live dangerously

            Comment


            • #7
              My triceps are lagging, arms in general. Obviously I know the main focus should be staying the course (getting stronger, adding weight, reps on the right movement). I know doing this should solve most of my lagging parts. I was merely wondering WHEN I feel like I have stalled out progress wise (which should take some time), what is a good DC protocol for windowmakers on other bodyparts and if they differ. That old post seemed to answer me questions.

              Also DC_Catholic, I no longer "count" my rep tempo. I used to, but I found I can focus more if I channel my concentration on instinctive "feel" rather than counting. If that makes any sense. if you ARE counting, I used an metronome App instead of a stopwatch or whatever. I found that worked well

              Comment


              • #8
                I never thought of the metronome that's awesome idea
                My partner counts my negs and I count his
                like
                1-2-3
                2-2-3
                3-2-3

                And I jus push real hard and hope for the best lol
                Last edited by DC_catholic315; 12-05-2015, 10:22 AM.
                I see you didn't take a s#!t before deadlifting....
                I too like to live dangerously

                Comment


                • #9
                  I can only imagine a true, 20rep failure on a widowmaker trying to keep with the same count lol. Sounds like a good challenge

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It sucks BALLS with a partner count
                    Lol

                    I could imagine a metronome
                    Last edited by DC_catholic315; 12-05-2015, 02:53 PM.
                    I see you didn't take a s#!t before deadlifting....
                    I too like to live dangerously

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If triceps are lagging, I would consider what movements you are doing for them. With 3 heads and different insertions, it comes down to more than just weight.

                      If you want more overall mass to your triceps then obviously more long head size is what you want. Unlike the medial and lateral heads, te long head inserts through the shoulders and around to the scapula. In order to put the long head into its most stretched position, you need overhead extensions to work the muscle fully. For the long head it's not just about elbow flexion and extension. For the medial and lateral heads, it is pretty much that simple. So most pushdowns and skullcrushers will suffice.

                      This is why I don't really believe your tricep rest pause sets HAVE to be some kind of compound move. Overhead Dumbell extensions, keeping my elbows in, have been my best mass builder for my triceps and same goes for my training partners. I then follow up an overhead move with a press or pushdowns move for a widowmaker to hit the medial and lateral heads a little extra since my long head did the majority of the work on the rest pause sets.

                      There is the train of though that you shouldn't do a tricep widow. Mainly because if you do a typical pressing DC workout, you've used your triceps on chest and shoulders. I put a little more detail into my pressing workouts than most. Since it's not all about living weight from A to B and actually about using the correct muscle, I leave more room for extra tricep volume at the end. Is that the best way to do it? For me it is and I have determined that from trial and error.

                      True Nutrition Discount: SRC745
                      *2006 USAPL Washington State Powerlifting Championships- 1st, 14-16 age-148lb class -2nd Men's Open 148lb class
                      •2x WABDL Worlds Runner Up - Teens 16-17 165lb
                      *Former WABDL Teen 16-17 165lb World Record Bench Holder (Washington state record) of 396.6lbs

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Keyser_Soze11 View Post
                        I have always followed the core 3 day DC split, without the obvious widowmaker being for quads. However, I have seen some training logs with people using widowmakers in order to bring up a lagging bodypart(s). Has anyone seen any huge difference by doing this? I am trying to stick to the basic plan as long as possible and just progress without changing things too much (except exercises). Any feedback or thoughts on results with adding widowmakers to other bodyparts?
                        A few thoughts.

                        Dante intentionally did not include WM's for anything other than quads on the Two-way (3days / week) split.

                        A think you're on the right track to keep gaining on the 2 way split, as this is the fastest way to gain muscle.

                        When you have added a significant amount of size, then a 3 way with muscle group WM's would be warranted.

                        There is a general perception that one can bring up a weak muscle group simply with training modifications, and while this may be true to some degree, ensuring that your whole body is gaining in muscular size is going to help in this regard tremendously. This topic has come up repeatedly here (and on other boards) where an individual is trying to bring up a muscle group in isolation, when other muscle groups aren't growing, too.

                        So the bottom line here is I think you're making a good call in sticking with the 2 way and putting on size making sure you're nailing your triceps with exercise selection there. In other words, I'd not try to add a triceps WM to the two way split (3 days / week).

                        -Scott
                        The Book Has Arrived!
                        The Book Has Arrived!

                        Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                        www.TrueNutrition.com

                        2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                        2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                        2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Collabera View Post
                          If triceps are lagging, I would consider what movements you are doing for them. With 3 heads and different insertions, it comes down to more than just weight.

                          If you want more overall mass to your triceps then obviously more long head size is what you want. Unlike the medial and lateral heads, te long head inserts through the shoulders and around to the scapula. In order to put the long head into its most stretched position, you need overhead extensions to work the muscle fully. For the long head it's not just about elbow flexion and extension. For the medial and lateral heads, it is pretty much that simple. So most pushdowns and skullcrushers will suffice.

                          This is why I don't really believe your tricep rest pause sets HAVE to be some kind of compound move. Overhead Dumbell extensions, keeping my elbows in, have been my best mass builder for my triceps and same goes for my training partners. I then follow up an overhead move with a press or pushdowns move for a widowmaker to hit the medial and lateral heads a little extra since my long head did the majority of the work on the rest pause sets.

                          There is the train of though that you shouldn't do a tricep widow. Mainly because if you do a typical pressing DC workout, you've used your triceps on chest and shoulders. I put a little more detail into my pressing workouts than most. Since it's not all about living weight from A to B and actually about using the correct muscle, I leave more room for extra tricep volume at the end. Is that the best way to do it? For me it is and I have determined that from trial and error.
                          Really Solid input. Makes a lot of sense.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                            A few thoughts.

                            Dante intentionally did not include WM's for anything other than quads on the Two-way (3days / week) split.

                            A think you're on the right track to keep gaining on the 2 way split, as this is the fastest way to gain muscle.

                            When you have added a significant amount of size, then a 3 way with muscle group WM's would be warranted.

                            There is a general perception that one can bring up a weak muscle group simply with training modifications, and while this may be true to some degree, ensuring that your whole body is gaining in muscular size is going to help in this regard tremendously. This topic has come up repeatedly here (and on other boards) where an individual is trying to bring up a muscle group in isolation, when other muscle groups aren't growing, too.

                            So the bottom line here is I think you're making a good call in sticking with the 2 way and putting on size making sure you're nailing your triceps with exercise selection there. In other words, I'd not try to add a triceps WM to the two way split (3 days / week).

                            -Scott
                            Thanks a lot Scott. Makes total sense. Get good at the basic and strong.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Keyser_Soze11 View Post
                              Thanks a lot Scott. Makes total sense. Get good at the basic and strong.
                              You're welcome.

                              -S
                              The Book Has Arrived!
                              The Book Has Arrived!

                              Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                              www.TrueNutrition.com

                              2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                              2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                              2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                              Comment

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