Exercise Order- Basic Question(s)

[thuggish]

So it's chest-shoulders-triceps-back width-back thickness

Just curious as to why?

Is there a reason not to put back width between chest and shoulders, to give the pushing muscles a chance to recover so you can push them harder?

Is it potentially a good strategy to put a muscle group up front if it needs more work? For instance, if your shoulders lag, do them before chest.

Is it potentially a good strategy to put a muscle group later if you have a tendency to overwork it? For instance, your chest is slow to progress and always extra sore, do it after shoulders and triceps so to not beat the hell out of it.

What do the smart guys say?

[O.G. Pimpin]

It's that way because that's the way Dante (aka Doggcrapp) laid it out after years of research and practical application... You can switch the order of body parts, etc. to suit what you think if you wish but know that you're not doing DC training.

[eggwhites]

It's that way because that's the way Dante (aka Doggcrapp) laid it out after years of research and practical application... You can switch the order of body parts, etc. to suit what you think if you wish but know that you're not doing DC training.

Why is it considered so blasphemous to ask questions like that of the OP's?

Yes, we can all agree that if he switches the exercise order, he will no longer be doing DC.

I'm pretty sure the OP already knows the exercises are laid out the way they are because Dante figured it was the best layout. But is it so wrong for him to be curious and ask "why"?

[O.G. Pimpin]

Why is it considered so blasphemous to ask questions like that of the OP's?

Yes, we can all agree that if he switches the exercise order, he will no longer be doing DC.

I'm pretty sure the OP already knows the exercises are laid out the way they are because Dante figured it was the best layout. But is it so wrong for him to be curious and ask "why"?

I'm sorry if you or the OP were offended by my answer. I said what I said because it is being posted in The Pound Puppy Section of the Dogg Pound, and presumably the OP is new to DC training. I personally don't think it's a good idea for those new to DC to start second guessing the program which has worked so well for many trainees over the years. The exercise order might seem strange, and the order agreeably pre-exhausts some muscles but it sets you up to do what should be your most demanding exercise last (presumably some form of deadlifts, barbell, or t-bar rows, etc.).

Here is a similar thread in which the trainee asked a similar question: http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthr...exercise+order. I hope the OP can access this. I found this by simply using the search function...

[mentalflex]

Exercise Order- Basic Question(s)

O.G. - Ahhh, the wondrous search function lol. Funny how that works....

You can argue the order all you want, the exercises are laid out as they are based on years and years of trial and error. What has been proven to be effective is what we currently have as DC training in that regard.

If you have proper exercise selection and are training DC as it should be trained, then you will find your development quite balanced.

And you speak of lagging body parts, how do you REALLY know they are lagging before you have put on a significant amount of size? Chances are what you think of as lagging is simply just lack of overall size. I'm saying that because this is puppy pound and generally reserved for those who are new to this type of training and do not yet have the size to make adequate determinations of what is and is not lagging.

And if you cannot push yourself with the required intensity with the given structure, I would question whether you truly have the experience to be doing DC in the first place.

[0001Delta]

Why is it considered so blasphemous to ask questions like that of the OP's?

Because such questions have been answered thousands of times before.

Hence why we always redirect people to the search function.

[trucelt]

The other reason for being a "dick", is to discourage people from trying DC. DC was created for competitive BB'ers who tapped out progress using traditional training methods and want to get over the hump to the next level.

This implies an experienced trainer, an experienced trainer should know that any system (dc, westside, max-ot, etc ) is really only effective when followed with some fidelity

[darkguitars2000]

I can speak from experience and say that I did the DC exercises OUT of order for a couple years, and after speaking with Homon, switched em back to the way they're SUPPOSED to be and it made a HUGE difference.

Started growing immediately (with a couple other changes) .

I think the REASON for the exercise order is that the muscle fatigue accumulates with the exercise order that is given (in other words, if you threw in a back exercise after Chest, then your shoulders and triceps would have more time to rest before you got to them and the affect would not be the same)

[Senatus]

Gents,

Not to throw a monkeywrench into the works here or anything, but I had a similar issue with DC training almost 10 years ago. I found that, unless I rested a ridiculously long time between pecs, delts and tris, the poundages and even overall intensity I could bring to the latter two suffered _unless_ I did a back width movement earlier on in the workout.

I would not have done that without "higher input," and no less than Inhuman suggested that I do my pec press, back width, shoulders, rest a bit for tris, then finish off with back thickness.

I wish I could find the relevant post. It might not even be here; it's entirely possible Ted shared that with me back when DC training was openly discussed at Chad's forum.

Nonetheless, I have no reason to lie -- and if you can't take Ted's word for it, the only higher-upper to consult is Dante himself.

And if you really think about it, the minor switch Ted suggested (which, incidentally, helped me IMMENSELY) doesn't violate ANY DC principle. It still leaves the hardest exercise at the end. It allows for some recovery between pressing and pulling bodyparts to help maximize the weight lifted in each.

I will look for the post in question. I have a full plate with my ill father and host of other things, but if it's "findable," I will locate it. In the meantime, all I can say is either consult Dante or have a bit of faith plus a bit of common sense. We all know Dante set up his routine for very good reasons, but if one fails to see why doing a pulldown/chin-type move after a, but between, chest and shoulder presses no way clusterfucks the DC approach ... well. I'll shut my trap and move on.

-Sean

[O.G. Pimpin]

It would be great if Homonunculus would chime in on this since I believe he is the current authorized DC trainer. I know I would certainly be interested in his opinion...

[homonunculus]

It would be great if Homonunculus would chime in on this since I believe he is the current authorized DC trainer. I know I would certainly be interested in his opinion...

Sure, I'd be happy to.

First and foremost, if there is a problem with doing just a single set (or even if it's a RP set and WM when doing a three way split) each of chest, shoulder and tri's, in the normal order with normal rest between exercises, I'd look to exercise selection (e.g., are you doing follow incline press with military press?). Related to this, I'd look to exercise execution. If you're a "delt pusher" with your chest exercises, remedy that with exercise form and/or the right exercises for you.

Secondarily, I'd look to a person's overall conditioning and ability to simply get after it. There may be some overlapping / residual fatigue in the front delts and tri's from doing chest / shoulders / triceps in that order, that fatigue may reduce the weight you can handle, but if you're unable to put forth the effort (without an undue amount of rest),I would FIRST CONSIDER whether that person has the drive and mental fortitude to get it done.

As Dante has said (in various ways) - We're just talking about a few sets here.

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I don't know anything about Senatus' situation, but if someone is extraordinarily strong, and perhaps comes from a powerlifting background (possibly meaning strength development without much muscle endurance or cardiovascular capacity), then shifting exercise order around could be a (for me likely temporary) solution. I'd look to remedy what's making it so difficult for that one person to do what hundreds and hundreds (of very strong people) have done, e.g., develop some more cardiovascular capacity or perhaps even shift rep ranges upward. in the case of someone with a background of training only in very low rep ranges, this would probably be a great way to spur growth.

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Here's the issue with changing the basic DC template.

-It's generally suited very well for 99+% of those who start off with DC and are good candidates for the program (this is my experience with training folks with DC) . This means, statistically, that most folks (and I would put thuggish in this category, given his past posts here on IM) who are asking about changing it around are doing so b/c of the reasons I note above: They are not ready for the program or are not executing it (exercise selection) or the exercises "properly" in some way.

I'll emphasize this: If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time (when blasting). You might take a look at things, though if you were to find that you've been banging away at the program and find that you're kicking so much damn ass that you're crippling yourself with superhuman efforts and bone-crushing weights and thus need to switch things a bit.

(FWIW, an easier way to introduce rest is simply to slip abs in there, if your'e doing them on your upper body day on the two-way.)

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There will be idiosyncratic situations (like Senatus' apparently) where the order should be changed, but frankly, those are gonna be few and far between. The exception does not make the rule, in this case.

So, I'd generally see a need to change the order as a symptom of something else that might need addressing vs. a change that should be made right away.

-S

P.S. The above is specifically in the context of DC training. A higher volume program, doing more exercises and I'd be more for interspersing pulling movements between pressing movements...

[mentalflex]

^^^^^ 'Dat dere is one sexy post

Thanks for shedding light on that Scott.

[TLopez]

If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time (when blasting). You might take a look at things, though if you were to find that you've been banging away at the program and find that you're kicking so much damn ass that you're crippling yourself with superhuman efforts and bone-crushing weights and thus need to switch things a bit.

AWESOME Scott!!

Mental, Here's your new sig.

[0001Delta]

AWESOME Scott!!

Mental, Here's your new sig.

NOPE! I call dibs!

[mentalflex]

NOPE! I call dibs!

Humbug...damn you Delta!