puppy with a question

[gnuckols]

1. strength=size?

This seems to be a basic DC tenant. However, does that mean that someone who's trained purposefully to add strength without much size has basically screwed himself out of those size gains? For example, I trained for PL and added about 150 to my squat, 125 to my bench, and 200 to my DL, but only about 10-15 pounds of muscle. Now, training DC style, will I reap ex post facto size gains from my strength, or have i essentially cheated myself?

[DOHCrazy]

have i essentially cheated myself?

Gee wiz... You're cheating your self by over analyzing and worrying about the small things.

[JohnnyBravo]

Ok, normally not much of a poster anymore but felt compelled to post here.

IMHO (not an expert). No. Neither of those things. You won't get ex post facto gains per se, but being strong certainly wont hurt in gaining size. think about how much the body would adapt to the stimulus from a 300lb bench vs a 200lb bench.

Problem #1 is you start from a flawed premise: that gaining strength and gaining size should be or are perfectly correlated. Theoretically, someone with a volume routine could add 10lb to bench and 10lbs of muscle vs. a guy who did DC putting 75lbs on his bench and gaining 20lbs (or even just 10lbs) of muscle in the same time. Did the DC guy miss out? No even if he made the same gains, this is what his body is capable of doing and he (presumably) came close to maximizing his potential. Sure, he gained less muscle/lb of bench press increase, but thats not really a valid way to measure things.

The other thing is that I don't totally belive in the whole size without strength/strength without size thing in two ways (in your case)
#1 its hard to put on tons of strenth without gaining weight. unless you were making a concerted effort to keep weight down and really staying on top of that, how much weight do you really think you woulda gained if you ate like a BB? I mean from what I know, most PL guys eat. a lot. Food=size. If you didn't put on muscle, then maybe its a result of:
#2 As a pl'er putting 100 or 200 or X lbs on your squat and dead mean something different than they do for a bodybuilder. I don't want to go so far as to say that it is a different movement...but it kind of is, particularly with the squat. So I guess what it comes down to is that you added 150lbs on your squat, but how much of that came from form and technique, how much from learning exactly how deep to go and then how much from quad strength?

With DC sure you change the form sometimes, but the idea is that you should be making gains based on your muscle strength not by placing your feet wider, or arching your back harder. I mean, take a look at DC's posts, the guy frequently advocates for making the movement HARDER for yourself, not easer, whereas IMO (and this is not a knock on PL'ers) powerlifting is about making it EASIER, eg arch hard and tuck elbows on bench or spread your legs on Squat so your ROM is shorter. basically what I am saying here is that PL and BB training are two different animals.

But as Dante says, its all about moving your max up. So use good form (I think I saw in your journal people saying you are doing so) and make progress.

[Kidrok (Hop)]

Just keep training hard and eat more.

[gnuckols]

alright, thanks guys!

[DCBliever]

Ok, normally not much of a poster anymore but felt compelled to post here.

IMHO (not an expert). No. Neither of those things. You won't get ex post facto gains per se, but being strong certainly wont hurt in gaining size. think about how much the body would adapt to the stimulus from a 300lb bench vs a 200lb bench.

Problem #1 is you start from a flawed premise: that gaining strength and gaining size should be or are perfectly correlated. Theoretically, someone with a volume routine could add 10lb to bench and 10lbs of muscle vs. a guy who did DC putting 75lbs on his bench and gaining 20lbs (or even just 10lbs) of muscle in the same time. Did the DC guy miss out? No even if he made the same gains, this is what his body is capable of doing and he (presumably) came close to maximizing his potential. Sure, he gained less muscle/lb of bench press increase, but thats not really a valid way to measure things.

The other thing is that I don't totally belive in the whole size without strength/strength without size thing in two ways (in your case)
#1 its hard to put on tons of strenth without gaining weight. unless you were making a concerted effort to keep weight down and really staying on top of that, how much weight do you really think you woulda gained if you ate like a BB? I mean from what I know, most PL guys eat. a lot. Food=size. If you didn't put on muscle, then maybe its a result of:
#2 As a pl'er putting 100 or 200 or X lbs on your squat and dead mean something different than they do for a bodybuilder. I don't want to go so far as to say that it is a different movement...but it kind of is, particularly with the squat. So I guess what it comes down to is that you added 150lbs on your squat, but how much of that came from form and technique, how much from learning exactly how deep to go and then how much from quad strength?

With DC sure you change the form sometimes, but the idea is that you should be making gains based on your muscle strength not by placing your feet wider, or arching your back harder. I mean, take a look at DC's posts, the guy frequently advocates for making the movement HARDER for yourself, not easer, whereas IMO (and this is not a knock on PL'ers) powerlifting is about making it EASIER, eg arch hard and tuck elbows on bench or spread your legs on Squat so your ROM is shorter. basically what I am saying here is that PL and BB training are two different animals.

But as Dante says, its all about moving your max up. So use good form (I think I saw in your journal people saying you are doing so) and make progress.

Agree and disagree, there was a thread on this at one point that you do lose possible growth potential. But when I switched to PL training from BB training I've gotten a lot thicker so I think it truly is person/genetic dependent. I've responded from periods of exclusive low rep training to higher rep training and grew from the different stimulii. just do what Kid Rok says and you'll be just fine.

[Lock it Up]

Just keep training hard and eat more.

Agree and disagree, there was a thread on this at one point that you do lose possible growth potential. But when I switched to PL training from BB training I've gotten a lot thicker so I think it truly is person/genetic dependent. I've responded from periods of exclusive low rep training to higher rep training and grew from the different stimulii. just do what Kid Rok says and you'll be just fine.

Agree, and agree.

Training muscular strength and muscular hypertrophy are two different ball games. Whereas muscular strength comes from (if we are talking exclusively about training for strength and not looking to add size I.E. A powerlifter looking to maintain a weight class) training your neuromuscular system, meaning getting more efficient at your movement, training for hypertrophy (and maybe even hyperplasia) comes from stretching fascia, inducing as much micro-damage as possible, forcing as much blood into your muscle as possible, and above all else EATING TO INDUCE AN ANABOLIC RESPONSE. Now, if you are stronger than you were a year ago, you are going to be able to cause more damage to your tissue (a greater stimulus), forcing a greater recovery need, which is facilitated by you EATING MORE over time. Further the more muscle you have, the more you need to eat to feed that muscle, as it is far more metabolically demanding to keep than adipose.

Bottom line, a stronger muscle is a bigger muscle yes, but if you aren't eating ENOUGH to induce that hypertrophic response...you could surely get stronger (given correct training protocol) but you not gonna put any tangible muscle on your frame.

So, in essence, why DC is equated with getting bigger via getting stronger is that, when stronger, you can cause a greater stimulus, while still doing the work needed to induce anabolism without sacrificing recovery time (You are moving more weight, more overall volume, than you would have to if you were lifting lighter).

And that's my welcome back post...this dissertation has me writing a lot, so ya I just went off...



EAT MORE

[JohnnyBravo]

Just keep training hard and eat more.

seems to be the secret...that and Dante and Justin's pancake house.

[greatkeen]

Agree, and agree.

Training muscular strength and muscular hypertrophy are two different ball games. Whereas muscular strength comes from (if we are talking exclusively about training for strength and not looking to add size I.E. A powerlifter looking to maintain a weight class) training your neuromuscular system, meaning getting more efficient at your movement, training for hypertrophy (and maybe even hyperplasia) comes from stretching fascia, inducing as much micro-damage as possible, forcing as much blood into your muscle as possible, and above all else EATING TO INDUCE AN ANABOLIC RESPONSE. Now, if you are stronger than you were a year ago, you are going to be able to cause more damage to your tissue (a greater stimulus), forcing a greater recovery need, which is facilitated by you EATING MORE over time. Further the more muscle you have, the more you need to eat to feed that muscle, as it is far more metabolically demanding to keep than adipose.

Bottom line, a stronger muscle is a bigger muscle yes, but if you aren't eating ENOUGH to induce that hypertrophic response...you could surely get stronger (given correct training protocol) but you not gonna put any tangible muscle on your frame.

So, in essence, why DC is equated with getting bigger via getting stronger is that, when stronger, you can cause a greater stimulus, while still doing the work needed to induce anabolism without sacrificing recovery time (You are moving more weight, more overall volume, than you would have to if you were lifting lighter).

And that's my welcome back post...this dissertation has me writing a lot, so ya I just went off...



EAT MORE

very well said.

[Sammich]

EAT MORE

EAT EVEN MORE THAN THAT

-:sammich: