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DC post on Mentzer/Science

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  • DC post on Mentzer/Science

    Found this post by Dante over at Professional Muscle. Thought some of the guys over here would want to see it. Makes some awsome points as usual. I think ive learned more from Dante in the past 4 months than i have in my entire education (including my degree) LOL

    Here is the problem Dad with your argument--first with science. If we listened to what science had to say we would all be doing 3 sets of 10, eating according to the food pyramid, thinking insulin has very little to do with muscle growth, thinking steroids are a placebo effect, that HMB, OKG, myostatin inhibitors are the greatest supplements ever made etc etc etc I could go on for days. Ill take what 198 out of 200 bodybuilders say works over two guys in lab coats (who have never stepped into a gym) who are doing experiments on labrats. Regardless of how you want to look at it there is very very little out there sciencewise in regards to building herculean muscle mass. There is no demand for it. So you take a little bit of pertinent science with a little bit of experience with a little bit of watching what is working for people and try to put it all together. The greatest advances in this sport came from people who dared to theorize and their theories proved out regardless of a NEJM abstract.

    As far as HIT training-EVERYBODY ON THIS EARTH IS DOING HIT TRAINING-no matter how you want to look at it. Chris Cormier goes in and does incline chest and he does 135 225 315 and then 455 for his work set. The first 3 were warmup sets! They dont count toward muscle building- I count that as one set! Do you think he grew on the 135 set? He then goes on and does 3 or so more exercises with the same up the scale weight scheme with the last set being the heaviest and hardest. Thats 4 sets for chest! What does chris say it is? He will tell people he did 12-16 sets for chest. Yea if you want to count warmups he did
    HIT training. I have my own way of training which is low sets and extremely heavy weights but do you think a HIT trainer who squats 580 for 8 just goes in and goes for it? No warmup? That would be absolutely ridiculous. No he does 135 225 315 405 495 etc and then goes all out on his work set. One guy would say that he did 6 sets and another guy would say he did one all out set. If he is hitting 8's all the way up how the hell is 405 and 495 going to give him greater muscle mass than the 495 for 8?
    You base your opinion on the fact that you tried Mentzer training and you lost size and seriously overtrained. Well I fault you then. Part of your job as a bodybuilder is to recognize your recovery ability and take the precautions neccesary. Secondly I fault Mentzers reasoning because he became quite unstable and went from CNS overload in his early days to overtraining anal retentiveness in his latter days. Ronnie Coleman trains 6 days a week hitting bodyparts twice a week. He warms up going up the scale in weight to his extremely heavy work set. That is HIT training. Someone else who is very weak might warmup with one set and then have his work set. That is also HIT training. People want to put these labels on everything but its pretty much the same thing. If your extremely strong your going to have to make your way up the ladder in weights until you get to your main work set. Now if I try Ronnie Colemans training and I get smaller and grossly overtrain should I go on message boards and say Ronnie is an idiot and his training sucks? NO I suck because I should realize I dont have the recovery ability to accomplish that and I dont. Ronnie is growing twice in a week while almost everyone else is growing once a week. If I had Ronnies genetics and could recover from hitting bodyparts like that twice over 6 days hell yea I would do that.
    I got a post on Animals board called cycle for pennies thats been going for a couple years now. Ive trained alot of guys now online and I have guys warming up and doing one all out rest pause set with one exercise per bodypart twice every 8 days. Ive lost count on how many guys on that thread that have gained 30-60lbs in bodyweight but Ill guesstimate if you read thru it theres about 100 who have posted. Ive been taking heavies and turning them into superheavies very very quickly. Im helping two 330lbers and a 313lb guy (all lean)get even larger and I myself have gone from 137 at 19 to 300lbs at 34 so Im pretty sure my methods have some merit. Now are you going to tell the people on that 137 thousand viewed post that what they are experiencing is some kind of placebo effect? I believe you also conversed with Chris250 about this in emails who is a guy Ive worked with who is a national competitor for quite a few years now. Chris weighed 252lbs when I started working with him and about 5 months later he hit close to 290lbs. Thats from a guy who has been lifting over a decade. If everything else stayed the same with him (supps, super supplements, an admitted increase in protiein though) but the training was pretty radically different how to you account for a 40lb gain in predominantly muscle mass? Theres some damn good competitors on this board (phil, bigA, fathead, excel, lats, patk etc) and we probaly all have different ideas and methods but I take offense to a opinion that something doesnt work because "it didnt work for you" It sounds like you took Mentzers theories and went to the absolute extreme with them, it didnt work out and now in your generalization all HIT is bunk. I hate the label HIT which some people throw onto my methods--I really do--because if I can generalize a little bit-I think every successful bodybuilder who is growing is training within his recovery ability with progressively heavy weights regardless of what kind of label you want to throw on it.

  • #2
    Wow I forgot about that thread---as you can see by my punctuation and spelling I had a little more time to write that than my current posts I write
    IG is



    • #3
      great post, im learning so much!

      DC STYLE!!!


      • #4
        Damn Dante, you should just cut and past that to every board you post on and shut a lot of people up

        Troponin Athlete

        Lana's EggWhites "Get Hard, Stay Hard"


        • #5
          That's one dynamite post. I've taken a lot of flack myself over the years for being "pro HIT" when really all i've done is gotten people to train within their recovery ability rather than going for the cookie cutter 40 set programs. Cheers Dogg.....that one ought to shut a lot of prople up. :Punch:


          • #6
            Being that I am new to DC style training ,here is question that relates to the aforementioned article. Lets say a lightweight" (185lbs) is on his Bi, Forearm, calf, hammy, quad split. Lets further say that for hammy he is doing sumo leg press and for quads the leg press. Is it feasible that after doing a 20 rep straight work set of sumo hammy press that all the trainee would need would be one warmup set before the work set?


            • #7
              Being that I am new to DC style training ,here is question that relates to the aforementioned article. Lets say a lightweight" (185lbs) is on his Bi, Forearm, calf, hammy, quad split. Lets further say that for hammy he is doing sumo leg press and for quads the leg press. Is it feasible that after doing a 20 rep straight work set of sumo hammy press that all the trainee would need would be one warmup set before the work set?
              This is something that you'd have to find out yourself, I doubt that one warmup set would be enough (expecially for the strong guy's here), but I haven't done sumo leg presses before a quad exercise so I'm not sure.

              I might do something like one set of 6 reps (and maybe focus a bit more on my quads because my hamstrings/glutes are tired) and one set of 2 reps with a weight close to my working set and then wait at least 2 minutes before my workset so my muscles and nervous system is completely ready.
              each day is an opportunity to move you closer to your goals.

              <--- Batdog needs trueprotein for his superpowers
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              • #8
                I know this is a repeat of the other post I made but it has to do with sumos and the legpress:

                "Talking about leg workouts and warmups, the other day was legs for me and I tried not to warmup properly on the leg press and I failed getting even one. As soon as I got it to the top I knew it was too heavy. So I stripped 300 or so off and started warming up properly. Then I got that weight easy.

                I actually "FELT" stronger by the time I got to my workset.

                This isn't the only time that warming up or working up in weights has made me feel this way. Huhhh."

                ain't it the shit? Just wait til you guys/gals see some of the strength jumps lol..and the size you put on!
                Good luck


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                • #9
                  Jim..I don't care how many times you post that I'm still NOT gonna read it...Please stop now
                  Massive G
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                  • #10
                    One of the biggest disappoinments in my training life was the dismal results I saw when I finally got my dream... I became one of Mike Mentzer's phone consults. I was at uni at the time so the $200 fee [$120 consult fee + $80 phone bill] was like a million dollars! Still, it was an opportunity to be trained by my teen idol so it was all worth it... it seemed. At the time Mike was honing HDII, so he was vague on a few points, one being recuperation. After he outlined my new routine I asked "what type of frequency"?, to which Mike said "oh, Monday, Wednesday, Friday".

                    I took that at face value, after all he had trained at least a 1000 people at that time from a wide cross-section of the community, so I had faith what he laid down was the Golden Fleece I was seeking. But the weeks passed and nothing--size wise--happened. Then when I called Mike back for my follow-up consult, he never varied from what I was doing.
                    To be fair on him he was still establishing the fine points but still I never "grew like a weed" as I was promised, even being "on" at the time. =(
                    No-one trains HARDER!!


                    • #11
                      Odds are he had you do the exact same thing s as the other 1000 people too.
                      International Elite Raw Powerlifter
                      Blood - Sweat - Chalk


                      • #12
                        The bastard prolly made a killing telling you the same workout he gave to everyone else, LOL.


                        • #13
                          Yeah, I was disappointed... my life's dream pettered out. Still, that is the past and now I have happened upon DC training--through seraching for info on Beyond Failure Training--I am thriving nicely! I can't believe how much I am beating myself up... if I did this to any other person or animal I would be locked up for life! And rightly so. LOL
                          No-one trains HARDER!!