Too Much Volume Too Often?

[thuggish]

I have noticed that, while following the DC template just about to a T, I add a rep to an exercise every few workouts, on average. That is to say, for example, on B-day, every three or so workouts I'll get an extra rep on whatever exercise I'm doing that day.

I have also noticed that if I do a workout a day or two late, I am much more likely to add a rep to an exercise.

Has anyone else noticed this sort of pattern?

Would those smarter than me recommend dropping the third "set" on exercises, adding a day of rest, cycle through skipping one of the five exercises (first B-day, skip bench, second B-day, skip pull-ups... until the sixth B-day, I skip bench again...) per workout to give it some extra recovery time, or what?

I'd love to hear some experienced inputs.

[liftweights]

Don't try to reinvent DC training, you answered your own terribly worded question in the first sentence.

"I have noticed that, while following the DC template just about to a T, I add a rep to an exercise every few workouts, on average."

Stop over-complicating shit pleaseeeee

[Kidrok (Hop)]

There are many variables that effect recovery. Are you eating enough? Are you eating enough of the right foods/macros? Are you getting enough sleep? What is your work schedule like? How much outside stress in your life? Are you participating in any other sports or physical activities?
Take a good look at what's going on outside the gym and you may find your answer before changing the workout around.
That being said, some people cannot handle the rest-pause sets and may do better simply switching to straight sets, but again, be sure everything else is in order 1st.

[mentalflex]

There are many variables that effect recovery. Are you eating enough? Are you eating enough of the right foods/macros? Are you getting enough sleep? What is your work schedule like? How much outside stress in your life? Are you participating in any other sports or physical activities?
Take a good look at what's going on outside the gym and you may find your answer before changing the workout around.
That being said, some people cannot handle the rest-pause sets and may do better simply switching to straight sets, but again, be sure everything else is in order 1st.

This sums it up. It appears what you are asking is to drop the 3rd RP set? Right? That set is there for a reason, to provide an additional failure pint and to increase muscle trauma.

How long have you been at this? Ask yourself this, Am I REALLY going got broke and pushing past where your body wants to stop?

Look at the other factors at play in the scenario you presented and optimize all of the things KidRock mentioned and you'll soon have a very angry logbook.

[Glyder]

Ok, I haven't posted in a while, but this one really threw me...Am I reading this right? Your GAINING a rep (yes, 1 whole rep) every 3 weeks? So your getting stronger because your adding weight each and every week to said exercise right?

And your concerned that your doing too much volume because of 1 rep, which is caused by you getting stronger? And you want to cut some of your exercises because your getting stronger, using the excuse that your doing too much volume so you should rest more?

Maybe I read this wrong, (i did read it about 5 times) but I think your overanalyzing things a bit too much. If your gaining too many reps, up the weight more.

If your benching 225 x 14 rp, and the next time around your doing 230 x 15, and the next 235 x 16, (cause that's how I read your statement) then I don't really see your problem. Other than you should up your next weight to 245 or 250 since your getting so strong.

[Time&Patience]

What you are referring to is totally changing the frequency of DC training. DC training has an innate beauty of pushing your body the a specific limitation and then doing that 3 times within a 2 week period.

If you are taking out an exercise you aren't following that same concept.

On the other hand, when you keep in mind individual differences, you may be posing a good question or scenario.

You might have certain bodyparts that would respond better to skipping an exercise from time to time. I recall Scott stating that to implement a "mild" cruise he may skip 1 exercise for a workout in order to allow that bodypart to regroup, but he would continue to hit everything else with the same intensity.

I can't recall the thread, but what Scott referenced is similar to what you are speaking.

I could see it being useful for times when you know a certain muscle group needs the rest, but you have to know your body. Typically, I feel ready to go for each workout when it's time, but I have had to incorporate an additional rest day due to life schedules and the workout was more-so better with that additional day of rest.

I do think your thought process is valid and could be incorporated with the right understanding in mind. For Example: I wouldn't just skip 1 exercise every workout. Perhaps skip a back thickness exercise if you seem to be taxed from B workout prior.

[homonunculus]

I have noticed that, while following the DC template just about to a T, I add a rep to an exercise every few workouts, on average. That is to say, for example, on B-day, every three or so workouts I'll get an extra rep on whatever exercise I'm doing that day.

I have also noticed that if I do a workout a day or two late, I am much more likely to add a rep to an exercise.

Has anyone else noticed this sort of pattern?

What I'm getting here is that this thread is an example of why folks who have not been training for several years, specifically using progressive overload, should not be doing DC. I see one of two possibilities:

Thuggish isn't doing a very good job of explaining himself b/c these concepts are new to him.

-He's only gain on a particular exercise every three or so WORKOUTS and when he does, it's only 1 one rep improvement.

Gaining only 1 rep every three workouts means it's time to switch and exercise IN A NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCE, but if this is happening all the time, with all exercises, as thuggish seems to be implying, then something is terribly wrong in Swoleville.

You might have certain bodyparts that would respond better to skipping an exercise from time to time. I recall Scott stating that to implement a "mild" cruise he may skip 1 exercise for a workout in order to allow that bodypart to regroup, but he would continue to hit everything else with the same intensity.

I can't recall the thread, but what Scott referenced is similar to what you are speaking.

This is Dante's suggestion and thus mine when it comes to DC training. If, typically after a blast has been running for a several weeks (usually nearing its end), you find that you are just run down, taking a day off can extend a blast. The more time blasting, the more time growing, so longer blasts, as long as they're truly productive, mean more growing.

Sometimes, just taking that 1 day off means that you avoid the day that would have buried you and brought a blast to an abrupt end. Take a day off means a LONG rest (almost a mini-cruise) esp. if you're on the 2 way.

Say you're scheduled to go:

Mon:Upper
Wed: Lower
Fri: Upper
Mon: Lower
Wed: Upper
Fri: Lower

You wake up Friday and all day you're wiped out, so you take Friday's session off and Instead go:

Mon:Upper
Wed: Lower
Fri: REST
Mon: Upper (continue where you left off)
Wed: Lower
Fri: Upper


So, now, you get an 2-3 days of rest between workouts for both Upper and Lower... This is a huge break when you've been just barely been recovering for 2-3 weeks previously...

------------------

The idea isn't to just blast for weeks on end, taking days off frequently so you can blast for months and months without a cruise. However, doing this once or twice to extend a blast by 2-4 (or more) weeks is worth it, IMO. (Sometimes this can really infuse a blast with some forward progress, too...)

-S

[thuggish]

I'll clarify a couple things. Yes, I meant every 3 workouts, meaning every 3 times doing a certain movement, is when I'd add a rep. Roughly, on average. But the kicker is that I seem to add a rep every time I have an extra day or two of rest, regardless. And in the subsequent workouts, I usually keep that rep that I gained.

So, coming off the heels of a few posts from Skip in some thread I can't find offhand about over-training such that you don't recover fast enough for the next workout, and thus impeding your progress, and noticing this in myself vs. what many others describe, I wondered if anyone else had noticed the same phenomenon happening to them, had made any adjustments, how'd they work out if they did, etc.

Simply put, I wondered if I was doing a little too much volume, or doing it a little too frequently, for my own good. Before I started tinkering with something that was working, albeit very slowly, I figured I'd open up a discussion on the subject.

So, without feeling insulted that I am "questioning" the DC training template dogma and casting me out as a heretic, I'm just looking for experienced peoples' thoughts.

[homonunculus]

I'll clarify a couple things. Yes, I meant every 3 workouts, meaning every 3 times doing a certain movement, is when I'd add a rep. Roughly, on average. But the kicker is that I seem to add a rep every time I have an extra day or two of rest, regardless. And in the subsequent workouts, I usually keep that rep that I gained.

So, you're getting pretty much, in most cases, in most workouts (2 out of 3), the EXACT same number of reps as you did previously? On average, you'll go up only a single rep for a given RP or straight set effort on 1/3rd of the sets you do?... (Most of all exercises in all workouts show no progress?...)

So, coming off the heels of a few posts from Skip in some thread I can't find offhand about over-training such that you don't recover fast enough for the next workout, and thus impeding your progress, and noticing this in myself vs. what many others describe, I wondered if anyone else had noticed the same phenomenon happening to them, had made any adjustments, how'd they work out if they did, etc.

Simply put, I wondered if I was doing a little too much volume, or doing it a little too frequently, for my own good. Before I started tinkering with something that was working, albeit very slowly, I figured I'd open up a discussion on the subject.

So, without feeling insulted that I am "questioning" the DC training template dogma and casting me out as a heretic, I'm just looking for experienced peoples' thoughts.

Thuggish, to be honest, I'm not 100% certain you're doing DC correctly...

http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?p=955101

... or are prepared to do DC. I'd like to see your full DC routine as well as the weights you're using, actually... (What's your body weight?...)

You've got the (an) obvious answer nailed up top (overtraining / under-recovering), but the uncanniness of landing on the same number of repetitions so frequently tells me that there's a mental / psychological issue at work here.

It would be pretty unusual to just happen to ride the edge of overtraining all the time (?) for as long as you seem to have (oh so very slowly creeping forward on ALL lifts?...) and not fall in into overt overtraining and have to stop your blast, start to accumulate injuries or aches n' pains, get sick and/or actually slowly see a performance decrement (loss of reps / progress).

I suspect you're not familiar or experienced enough with tackling a progressive overload training system like DC to make the kind of progress that most all folks do and you should.

Good question, though. I do suspect though that you're not sacrificing form to go up in weight or get more reps, so that's a good thing.

-S

[thuggish]

Fair enough.

I looked through my log more thoroughly last night, and it is noteworthy that some smaller muscles like triceps movements, be it cgbp or skull crushers, add reps much faster- up to one a workout. Lat movements add a rep every two workouts, maybe, but chest and triceps are the worst.

Why is it uncanny that I land on the same number of reps? Wouldn't that be an indicator that I'm not getting much if any stronger? I have experimented with not looking at the number of reps I got last workout (just checking the weight), to see if it's my brain defeating me, but the results are the same.

My body weight is 195 with a fairly low bf (can see abs), I'd guess between 10-15%.

Here's an example routine:
Dumbbell Bench Press, rest-pause
Weighted Chin-up, rest-pause
Wide Grip Press, rest-pause
Two-handed landmine Row, long rest-pause (to catch breath)
Dumbbell Skull Crusher, rest-pause

Rest-pause sets are taken with as fast as I can concentric, 3-5 seconds eccentric (until the last one that I can no longer support), and I take 15 slow (as I can) breaths between "sets." I should also mention that I stretch until it hurts for a count to 60 for each body part, much as I don't want to.

If I'm forgetting anything, I can't think of it...

May be worth mentioning, since you bring up experience with progressive overload, that I have done such routines in the past, but before hearing about DC training, I was following the Westside template.

[homonunculus]

Thuggish,

It's uncanny that you land on the same number of reps because you would be the first person that I've ever seen that with. (I'm the official guy Dante sends DC training clients to, so I've trained a few over the past couple years, plus I've got a few years of DC training under my belt.)

You're not doing DC training in the proper order and there are other things that neither I nor Dante woudl have you doing. (Stretch *until* it hurts is also not Extreme stretching, if you're referring tot he kind of muscular ache (not tendon, joint or injurious pain) that a deep extreme stretch is supposed to evoke.)

You forgot to post weights you use.

So, I'll just be blunt and say that it's still my best guess that you don't train hard enough to make whatever you're doing work. I'm guessing you're not gaining the weight / eating enough, as well, but that's all a different matter....

There is something to the fact that you get *1* more rep after taking a day off, so I'd just go with a lower training frequency and see how that works. It's just not DC training. Heck, that would double your rate of gains...

-S

Fair enough.

I looked through my log more thoroughly last night, and it is noteworthy that some smaller muscles like triceps movements, be it cgbp or skull crushers, add reps much faster- up to one a workout. Lat movements add a rep every two workouts, maybe, but chest and triceps are the worst.

Why is it uncanny that I land on the same number of reps? Wouldn't that be an indicator that I'm not getting much if any stronger? I have experimented with not looking at the number of reps I got last workout (just checking the weight), to see if it's my brain defeating me, but the results are the same.

My body weight is 195 with a fairly low bf (can see abs), I'd guess between 10-15%.

Here's an example routine:
Dumbbell Bench Press, rest-pause
Weighted Chin-up, rest-pause
Wide Grip Press, rest-pause
Two-handed landmine Row, long rest-pause (to catch breath)
Dumbbell Skull Crusher, rest-pause

Rest-pause sets are taken with as fast as I can concentric, 3-5 seconds eccentric (until the last one that I can no longer support), and I take 15 slow (as I can) breaths between "sets." I should also mention that I stretch until it hurts for a count to 60 for each body part, much as I don't want to.

If I'm forgetting anything, I can't think of it...

May be worth mentioning, since you bring up experience with progressive overload, that I have done such routines in the past, but before hearing about DC training, I was following the Westside template.

[mentalflex]

Scott - Question for you:

This is not directed at Thuggish by any means, but just a curious thought and if the answer is something that you'd rather keep specific to individual clients, I have no problem there...

So hypothetically, say someone jumps into DC and finds out that they simply can't handle it yet. They are dying on the rest-pause sets far too early and aren't "feeling" it as one would when they crush the RP set. Aside from understanding one's body and how one responds to various rep schemes based on their individual differences and knowing how to build the blast properly, it seems that being able to get into the mindset and generate the proper intensity required to make DC successul is a a key factor in determining whether one is ready to dig in with DC.

Based on what you've seen over the years, if one is learning how to build up the propensity to train intensely, do individuals tend to develop that mentality faster by pounding away with volume, experimenting with intensity techniques (Rest pause, statics, negative, partials, drop sets....etc.) to learn how to push the limit, or is it only after one has dabbled in both realms and developed sufficient experience with a variety of training methods and their individual response that one can truly reap the benefits of DC?

[thuggish]

Thuggish,

...

(Stretch *until* it hurts is also not Extreme stretching, if you're referring tot he kind of muscular ache (not tendon, joint or injurious pain) that a deep extreme stretch is supposed to evoke.)

So, I'll just be blunt and say that it's still my best guess that you don't train hard enough to make whatever you're doing work. I'm guessing you're not gaining the weight / eating enough, as well, but that's all a different matter....

There is something to the fact that you get *1* more rep after taking a day off, so I'd just go with a lower training frequency and see how that works. It's just not DC training. Heck, that would double your rate of gains...

-S

When I said until it hurts, I meant until the muscle is being pulled on really, really hard, then I hold it, then I try to go further and hold THAT... etc.

I appreciate the bluntness, because when it's constructive, it's the most efficient and useful advice. And I suppose it is possible I'm not training hard enough, though I can say with certainty that every set I do I push until my muscles will not give me another rep.

I'll give that a try, see how it works, and if it's not "DC training" so be it, I'm only concerned with results.

Perhaps you're right, and one day I'll be up to par with what it takes to do "DC training" and go from there.

Scott - Question for you:

This is not directed at Thuggish by any means, but just a curious thought...

That's cool, I'm okay with being the example for a learning exercise.

[jrf0104]

I am wondering if being a Type 1 diabetic has anything to do it with thuggish's issues?

http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthr...602#post962602

[homonunculus]

Scott - Question for you:

This is not directed at Thuggish by any means, but just a curious thought and if the answer is something that you'd rather keep specific to individual clients, I have no problem there...

So hypothetically, say someone jumps into DC and finds out that they simply can't handle it yet. They are dying on the rest-pause sets far too early and aren't "feeling" it as one would when they crush the RP set. Aside from understanding one's body and how one responds to various rep schemes based on their individual differences and knowing how to build the blast properly, it seems that being able to get into the mindset and generate the proper intensity required to make DC successul is a a key factor in determining whether one is ready to dig in with DC.

Based on what you've seen over the years, if one is learning how to build up the propensity to train intensely, do individuals tend to develop that mentality faster by pounding away with volume, experimenting with intensity techniques (Rest pause, statics, negative, partials, drop sets....etc.) to learn how to push the limit, or is it only after one has dabbled in both realms and developed sufficient experience with a variety of training methods and their individual response that one can truly reap the benefits of DC?

I think it's a matter of nature and nurture. The guys who can just push beyond where others will go or can go often just seem to have whatever screws loose that are required to go that extra distance.

More important than a particular training regime seems to be training with other guys who TRAIN HARD. I see guys training with volume in the gym all the time who don't train f*(#in' hard. (I just suspect they're training volume b/c I see them doing teh same muscle group for an extended period of time...)

I often suggest to clients to find a training partner who's larger or more experienced, or to train at a gym where people friggin' TRAIN, so that they are exposed to hard training. Guys with athletic backgrounds have often been to hell and back in practice, be it basketball, football, wrestling or what have you. Part of the reason they are there is athletic ability, but often it's the genetic compenent that gives someone a propensity to get involved with those kinds of activity.

Kris, I think you know wrestlers - they are often animals by nature. I don't care if they had a background in checkers or lion taming, some guys are just made to be beasts and seek out athletic endeavors the match that. Then, by training around others like that, they get even better at it, but if you don't have that killer instinct / mentality, then there is only so far you can go.

When I said until it hurts, I meant until the muscle is being pulled on really, really hard, then I hold it, then I try to go further and hold THAT... etc.

I appreciate the bluntness, because when it's constructive, it's the most efficient and useful advice. And I suppose it is possible I'm not training hard enough, though I can say with certainty that every set I do I push until my muscles will not give me another rep.

Sorry for the graphic picture here - but if next time you were in the gym and someone put a gun to your head and said, "Thuggish, you better get 5 more friggin' reps on this set or it's the last set you're EVER gonna do," would you get 5 more reps?...

Do you train so friggin' hard that people think there's something seriously wrong with you sometimes or just stop and stare b/c of who knows what reasons?... (There could probably many.) If they're staring just b/c you're an ugly SOB like me, that doesn't count...

I'll give that a try, see how it works, and if it's not "DC training" so be it, I'm only concerned with results.

Perhaps you're right, and one day I'll be up to par with what it takes to do "DC training" and go from there.

That you aren't absolutely certain that you're giving it 100% tells me (this is just me) that there's a much better chance that you could benefit from some training experiences with someone who gets after it more than you...

...Or simply that another kind of training might work better. You don't HAVE to train to failure ala DC to make gains, but you should be "raping" the log book much more than you have been if DC is going to be an effective program for you...

That's cool, I'm okay with being the example for a learning exercise.

Hopefully you figure out what works for you, too, man. No use pissing around in the gym and not making gains, or at least having the physique you want if you don't have it already, eh?...

-S