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  • Bulking and Fat

    I'll make this simple for the guys who have been there (the big ones) and who know...

    When you're putting on muscle mass, how much fat should you expect to gain in the process? How much is too much (as in, what ratio should you aim for, roughly)? And is it even possible to keep your stomach behind your chest?

  • #2
    That is a pretty wide open question. It really depends on your goals...what are they? Are you planning on competing? Health? Longevity? Strength? Are you a natty? etc... Personally, I had my best gains when I did a year and a half of the "see food" diet and lifted heavy on DC. Was it the healthiest way?.. nope, felt pregnant and bloated most days and daily duties were tiring. Was it the QUICKEST way to put on mass in a year or so FOR ME (I am a normal Ecto-Meso)...yep. The dieting down sucked, but when I peeled off all the fat, I was the biggest and thickest I had ever been (competing since 2005 or so). In summary, it really depends on your goals and how much you want to sacrifice. I believe you can stay lean and get a little bigger every year (3-5 pounds a year for a natty who is not new to the game), but there is something to be said about the anabolic properties of food and mass quantities of it... read some of Dante's post on the Sumo studies and massive eating.
    "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." -William G. McAdoo

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    • #3
      Most people say 12%-%15 being the highest. But it comes done to how much you want to gain and will have to loose come dieting time.

      I truly believe in fasted morning cardio and tons of good foods and then a small skipload on the weekend. I'm eating from a competitive weight of 168 to a competition weight of 220-230. It's a long hard road. But worth it in the end.
      life is a battle at every front, training is a war I fight to win- Lee priest (I think)

      Nothing great comes without sacrifice- Oscar Ardon

      True Protein get the best supplements WWW.trueprotein.com
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      • #4
        Just remember, the more fat you gain the more you have to take off. And taking it off without losing muscle in the process is a long process. Even if you diet down slowly you sacrifice some muscle.
        :preach:

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        • #5
          Originally posted by liftweights View Post
          Just remember, the more fat you gain the more you have to take off. And taking it off without losing muscle in the process is a long process. Even if you diet down slowly you sacrifice some muscle.
          I personally think that if you lose the fat slowly and properly that you don't hafta lose any muscle at all.....if you are losing strength somewhat steadily, or notice a drop off in strength, then yes, you may be, but if your strength stays the same or close or even goes up, I certainly don't think you're losing any muscle that would be noticeable, at all....I think alot of people are way off as far as bodyfat percentage and how much muscle they are actually carrying, which can lead to the thought that they have lost muscle while dieting. Not saying that people don't, just saying that if it's noticeable, then they aren't dieting right.....
          STEEL




          "SIMPLICITY, CONSISTENCY, INTENSITY"

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          • #6
            Originally posted by steel1970 View Post
            I personally think that if you lose the fat slowly and properly that you don't hafta lose any muscle at all.....if you are losing strength somewhat steadily, or notice a drop off in strength, then yes, you may be, but if your strength stays the same or close or even goes up, I certainly don't think you're losing any muscle that would be noticeable, at all....I think alot of people are way off as far as bodyfat percentage and how much muscle they are actually carrying, which can lead to the thought that they have lost muscle while dieting. Not saying that people don't, just saying that if it's noticeable, then they aren't dieting right.....
            Agreed. Even as a natty, working with a prep guy can really prevent you from losing hardly any (if any mass). It will certainly take some time, and that is time you could be spending gaining mass. But on the other hand, you will put on some fat gaining weight either way. As MaxNat said, it might make sense to put on a little more if you can put on an appreciably larger quantity of muscle.

            MaxNat: how long did you pursue the "see food" diet? And how much stage mass did you put on in that time period? I agree with you, but I too am considering what I want to do when I start gaining again.

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            • #7
              MaxNat: how long did you pursue the "see food" diet? And how much stage mass did you put on in that time period? I agree with you, but I too am considering what I want to do when I start gaining again.
              I only compete every two years instead of every year, as I PERSONALLY think that as a natty, especially at my age, it takes more than a 6-9 month period to put on any noticeable size difference. Because you have to rebound from your competition weight for a few months, and then try to eat your way back up to NEW growth, which in my opinion, takes longer than the few months you would have before you would have to start dieting again for the following year. So to answer your question I ate EVERYTHING (clean and "not so clean") for about 14-16 months. I got up to 216 pounds (which really was not all that pretty... I am extremely small-framed...6" wrists), but when the fat came off, I gained about 5 pounds of stage weight (170 vs 165) BUT... I actually had gained slightly more than that because I was also a few points lower in body fat and was in way better condition. It may not sound like much, but 5 pounds of lean tissue on a 5' 7" frame looks incredibly thicker! I know the argument will be, "hey dumb ass, just stay lean all year and gain slower, so you don't have to cut off all that fat!", but I will take 5-6 pounds of new stage weight and go through some hell to cut fat versus staying lean and limiting my muscle gains by a few pounds (I have tried it both ways, so I am just stating what works best for ME personally). Good luck, whatever you decide to do.
              "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." -William G. McAdoo

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              • #8
                Thanks bro. Also a natural, so just interested inyour thoughts. Makes sense.
                So if I understand you correctly, you went from 165 on stage to 216 at one pt in the offseason. Dayum. Lol.

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                • #9
                  Awesome info MaxNat. I am a natty too in a similar situation...trying to make the decision between fat bulking and lean bulking.

                  Like you, I gained all the size I have now from one long 2 year bulk where I went from 200 to 240 and have kind of spun my wheels the last year as I tried to stay lean. It is really hard to gain muscle while staying lean. Like you said, you don't really notice any difference year to year...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by youngbb View Post
                    Thanks bro. Also a natural, so just interested inyour thoughts. Makes sense.
                    So if I understand you correctly, you went from 165 on stage to 216 at one pt in the offseason. Dayum. Lol.
                    Yes, I did, but my normal weight is probably around 185-190 most of the time, so 216 wasn't that far of a stretch (I was fat but not Fat Albert fat!!) and remember this is a pretty slow gain over a year and a half or so, not in a few months...

                    Originally posted by SkinnyMike42 View Post
                    Awesome info MaxNat. I am a natty too in a similar situation...trying to make the decision between fat bulking and lean bulking.

                    Like you, I gained all the size I have now from one long 2 year bulk where I went from 200 to 240 and have kind of spun my wheels the last year as I tried to stay lean. It is really hard to gain muscle while staying lean. Like you said, you don't really notice any difference year to year...
                    For me personally, I find that I really don't start gaining any size until I am in at least that 12% to 16% BF range. Again, I am a normal Ecto/Meso and I am older than you guys, and probably getting close to my genetic potential. Hell, I am finding that I have to work harder every year just to keep what I got at 43! LOL! However, for me, food seems to be the best anabolic and eating every 2 hours or so WILL lead you to fat gains as well ...we are nattys...deal with it! Do we lose some mass on the way down?.. you bet... you area natty, deal with it! I am not dissing anyone on supper sups or judging anyone that does them, I have mad respect for everyone that does this regardless of their status, and I don't want to turn this into a Natty vs Enhanced Athlete discussion, I am simply stating that as a Natty, you have a few tools removed from the toolbox, so you need to do what you can with food and supps to make the best gains you can. Call it a dirty bulk, clean bulk, incredible bulk, whatever... I just eat a ton, and DC like a mother and then SLOWLY get the fat off. My last contest prep was like 28 weeks or something crazy like that...not your normal 12-16 week prep. Slow up...and slow on the way down...that is the key (thus the reason I only compete every couple years, and not every year). Hope this rambling helps? LOL!
                    "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." -William G. McAdoo

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MaxNat View Post
                      For me personally, I find that I really don't start gaining any size until I am in at least that 12% to 16% BF range. Again, I am a normal Ecto/Meso and I am older than you guys, and probably getting close to my genetic potential. Hell, I am finding that I have to work harder every year just to keep what I got at 43! LOL! However, for me, food seems to be the best anabolic and eating every 2 hours or so WILL lead you to fat gains as well ...we are nattys...deal with it! Do we lose some mass on the way down?.. you bet... you area natty, deal with it! I am not dissing anyone on supper sups or judging anyone that does them, I have mad respect for everyone that does this regardless of their status, and I don't want to turn this into a Natty vs Enhanced Athlete discussion, I am simply stating that as a Natty, you have a few tools removed from the toolbox, so you need to do what you can with food and supps to make the best gains you can. Call it a dirty bulk, clean bulk, incredible bulk, whatever... I just eat a ton, and DC like a mother and then SLOWLY get the fat off. My last contest prep was like 28 weeks or something crazy like that...not your normal 12-16 week prep. Slow up...and slow on the way down...that is the key (thus the reason I only compete every couple years, and not every year). Hope this rambling helps? LOL!
                      Well.. i will take this advice and run with it. If i make half the gains you have, i will be very pleased. Very inspirational and helpful for us nattys. Thanks MaxNat
                      Wanna save $$$ on your next protein purchase? Use TES117 for 5% off your order at www.truenutrition.com.

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                      • #12
                        Inspirational for anyone, regardless of drug status. Just doing it year after year, pounding the food and the iron, takes alot of dedication and commitment....
                        STEEL




                        "SIMPLICITY, CONSISTENCY, INTENSITY"

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                        • #13
                          Thanks guys. I should put in a disclaimer however and reiterate that I am a Ecto/Meso with a pretty fast metabolism, and I really have to fight the food to gain weight, so this "see food" diet so to speak, will obviously not work for someone who is very carb sensitive or already at 20-25% BF and works out a couple times a week (I don't want to be responsible for heart attacks!). My diet is kinda built on "get the clean nutrient-dense foods in first", then if I feel like ice cream or a candy bar or whatever I throw it in on top of the steak and potatoes for extra calories. I eat at fast food every once in awhile, but I am not saying got eat 4 Big Macs a day every day just to get calories. Eat every couple of hours and get your protein in, and throw on extra "junk" calories within reason. I basically look at it as...I need protein, water, and calories (clean and "not so clean"!) to grow. Weekends can be pretty fun though! LOL!
                          "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." -William G. McAdoo

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                          • #14
                            I am working with Scott right now, shooting for overall largeness. I told him I didn't really care about bodyfat, I just wanted to get as large as I possibly could over the next few months, then hold weight for a while and strip the fat slowly.

                            Here are a few pics, two of when I started working with him in May at 221 and two from last Tuesday at 236. Nothing impressive in these photos, but I thought it might help someone to see just how fat some guys need to let themselves get if they are looking to put on mass.

                            As MaxNat said, if you are natty and want to make any sort of dramatic changes to your physique, I believe you have to get over your fear of being a tub-o.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Macho Man View Post
                              I am working with Scott right now, shooting for overall largeness. I told him I didn't really care about bodyfat, I just wanted to get as large as I possibly could over the next few months, then hold weight for a while and strip the fat slowly.

                              Here are a few pics, two of when I started working with him in May at 221 and two from last Tuesday at 236. Nothing impressive in these photos, but I thought it might help someone to see just how fat some guys need to let themselves get if they are looking to put on mass.

                              As MaxNat said, if you are natty and want to make any sort of dramatic changes to your physique, I believe you have to get over your fear of being a tub-o.
                              Nice work Macho! Smooth is beautiful! Are these pictures in the morning before you eat all day, or have you had a few meals? Reason I ask is my belly has way more distention after a few meals and water, where yours looks pretty damn good actually... or are you just suckin it in for the ladies?? Don't let it go to your head, you are still one ugly mug though! Do you own a razor? HA!
                              "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." -William G. McAdoo

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