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  • nootropics

    Whats the low down on nootropics? Anyone with any experience on stuff like that here? Are results of such stuff on bodybuilders fact or fad?
    Consistency is the key

    Protein? Use this for a 5% discount at LVP931

  • #2
    im not hardcore, im not cool, pretending any different would be acting the fool--- ill leave that to those who are good at it

    Training for the Proffesional Natural Olympia fall 2006




    • #3
      here is some study from Pubmed on piracetum:

      Brain Inj. 1991 Oct-Dec;5(4):375-80. Related Articles, Links

      Placebo-controlled study of pramiracetam in young males with memory and cognitive problems resulting from head injury and anoxia.

      McLean A Jr, Cardenas DD, Burgess D, Gamzu E.

      Neuro Care Inc., Seattle, Washington.

      The current study evaluated under double-blind placebo-controlled conditions, the safety and efficacy of 400 mg pramiracetam sulphate TID in treating memory and other cognitive problems of males who have sustained brain injuries. The results of the study indicate that subject performance in measures of memory, especially delayed recall, evidenced clinically significant improvements after the administration of pramiracetam sulphate as compared to placebo. This improvement was maintained during an 18-month open-trial period on the medication as well as during a 1-month follow-up period after the pramiracetam was discontinued.

      Behav Brain Res. 1989 Jun 1;33(2):197-207. Related Articles, Links

      A new one-trial test for neurobiological studies of memory in rats. II: Effects of piracetam and pramiracetam.

      Ennaceur A, Cavoy A, Costa JC, Delacour J.

      Laboratoire de Psychophysiologie, Universite Paris VII, France.

      The effects of the nootropic drugs Piracetam (Pir) and Pramiracetam (Pram) were evaluated on recognition-memory of rats in a new one-trial test. This test is based on spontaneous exploratory activity and does not involve rule learning or reinforcement. Recognition is measured by the time spent by rats in exploring two different objects, one familiar (the sample), the other new. When the retention interval is 1 min, normal rats spend more time exploring the new object which demonstrates that they recognize the familiar one, but they do not discriminate between the two objects after a 24-h interval. Three doses of Pram (15, 30 and 60 mg/kg) and Pir (100, 200 and 400 mg/kg) were administered i.p. 30 min before the acquisition trial. The doses of 30 mg/kg of Pram and of 400 mg/kg of Pir produced a significant improvement in retention when the intertrial interval was 24 h. This effect was not associated with a change in overall exploratory behavior. This study shows that the new object-recognition test may be a useful tool for pharmacological studies of memory in rats.

      Psychopharmacology (Berl). 1986;89(3):378-81. Related Articles, Links

      The effect of pramiracetam (CI-879) on the acquisition of a radial arm maze task.

      Murray CL, Fibiger HC.

      The effect of the nootropic drug pramiracetam (CI-879) on acquisition of a radial arm maze task was examined in the rat. Two doses of pramiracetam (7.5 mg/kg and 15 mg/kg) were administered daily prior to testing for 7 weeks in a 16-arm radial maze in which nine arms were baited with food. This procedure permitted a distinction between working memory (short-term) and reference memory (long-term). Both doses of pramiracetam significantly improved performance in the reference memory component of the task, but did not significantly affect the working memory component. These data indicate that pramiracetam can enhance some aspects of spatial learning and memory in the rat.

      xperientia. 1985 Nov 15;41(11):1433-5. Related Articles, Links

      Arousal deficit shown in aged rat's quantitative EEG and ameliorative action of pramiracetam compared to piracetam.

      Poschel BP, Ho PM, Ninteman FW.

      The basal EEG profile of the aged Fisher-344 rat was consistently different from that of the young rat, showing dominant high voltage slow-wave components. These slow waves were present in both the frontal cerebral cortex and dorsal hippocampus. Absent or greatly attenuated in the aged rat's hippocampal EEG was rhythmic theta activity, which was always dominant in the young awake rat's hippocampus. These EEG differences were clearly apparent only under basal test conditions, i.e., following habituation to the test situation. Pramiracetam sulfate acted strongly to normalize the aged rat's EEG, while the action of piracetam was weak and appeared to undergo tolerance development.

      Biomed Biochim Acta. 1988;47(4-5):417-21. Related Articles, Links

      [Cholinergic effects of nootropics]

      [Article in German]

      Funk KF, Schmidt J.

      Institut fur Pharmakologie und Toxikologie, Medizinische Akademie Carl Gustav Carus, Dresden, DDR.

      With respect to the enhancing effect of nootropics on learning and memory, the influence of some of these drugs on the high affinity choline uptake has been investigated. Meclofenoxate competes with choline uptake in vitro because of its similar side chain; other nootropics are without in vitro effects. A single dose of pramiracetam enhances the choline uptake in cortex and hippocampus. Application of meclofenoxate decreases the uptake of choline. Other nootropics lack acute effects. Possible increases of uptake after repeated dosage disappear within 24 h.


      • #4
        heres more:

        Interaction between psychological and pharmacological treatment in
        cognitive impairment

        Deberdt W.

        UCB Pharma,
        Chemin du Foriest, Braine-l'Alleud, Belgium.
        Life Sci 1994;55(25-26):2057-2066

        In contrast to other kinds of psychotropic drugs, nootropics or
        cognition enhancing drugs may be indicated, not for the direct
        treatment of the pathology itself, but for improving or restoring the
        remaining brain functions. Brain functions are normally trained during
        various kinds of non-medical therapy, such as physiotherapy, speech
        therapy, occupational therapy, memory training etc. In research little
        attention has been paid to the combination of both kinds of
        therapeutic approaches, probably because of the important
        methodological difficulties. This combination however, offers various
        interesting perspectives: L. ISRAEL examined in two placebo-controlled
        studies the effects of either 160 mg/d of ginkgo biloba extractum
        (GBE) or piracetam 2.4 or 4.8 g/d, combined with a memory training
        program, in nondemented patients complaining of memory problems. The
        results of both studies suggest that nootropic drug treatment and
        memory training have each an effect on different cognitive functions
        and, hence, are complementary. Some functions, like
        attention/perception in the GBE study and learning in the piracetam
        study, seem to benefit from both treatments, suggesting a mutually
        potentiating effect of drug treatment and training. This potentiation
        is very clear in the treatment of dyslexic children: in a
        placebo-controlled study piracetam 3.3 g/d, in combination with normal
        school teaching and more specific logopedic therapy, allowed a normal
        progression during the full school year in reading accuracy and
        reading comprehension, while the placebo treated children getting a
        similar training progressed only with 50%. Recently promising results
        were obtained in the treatment of dysphasic patients with a
        combination of speech therapy and piracetam 4.8 g/d, especially when
        given during the first months after the stroke, or otherwise in
        combination with an intensive speech training. In both double-blind
        studies the piracetam treated group improved about 60% more than the
        group who only got speech therapy and placebo. All these data may be
        explained by the restorative or enhancing influence of nootropic drugs
        on neurotransmitter systems closely related to learning and memory
        functions. E.g. piracetam restores the availability and function of
        muscarinic and NMDA receptors in aging animals, most probably through
        a modulation of the psychico-chemical properties of the neuronal
        membrane such as the membrane fluidity.
        Piracetam and dyslexia: effects on reading tests.

        Wilsher CR, Bennett D, Chase CH, Conners CK, DiIanni M,
        Feagans L, Hanvik LJ, Helfgott E, Koplewicz H, Overby P, et al.

        J Clin Psychopharmacol 1987 Aug;7(4):230-7

        Previous research has suggested that dyslexics treated with piracetam
        have shown improvements in reading skills, verbal memory and verbal
        conceptualizing ability, feature analysis, and processing of
        letter-like stimuli. Two hundred twenty-five dyslexic children
        between the ages of 7 years 6 months and 12 years 11 months whose
        reading skills were significantly below their intellectual capacity
        were enrolled in a multicenter, 36-week, double-blind,
        placebo-controlled study. Children of below average intelligence,
        with abnormal findings on audiologic, ophthalmologic, neurologic,
        psychiatric, and physical examinations, who were emotionally disturbed
        or educationally deprived and who had recently been treated with
        psychoactive medication were excluded from the trial. Piracetam was
        well tolerated, with no serious adverse clinical or laboratory effects
        reported. Piracetam-treated children showed significant improvements
        in reading ability (Gray Oral Reading Test) and reading comprehension
        (Gilmore Oral Reading Test). Treatment effects were evident after 12
        weeks and were sustained for the total period (36 weeks).
        Evaluation of the efficacy of piracetam in treating information
        processing, reading and writing disorders in dyslexic children.

        Tallal P, Chase C, Russell G, Schmitt RL.

        Int J Psychophysiol 1986 May;4(1):41-52

        Piracetam, a new class of drug thought to enhance specific cognitive
        skills, was given in a 3300 mg daily dose to half of a group of
        fifty-five dyslexic boys aged 8-13 years, in a 12-week, double-blind,
        placebo-controlled study. The other half of the subjects received
        placebo. All subjects met the following criteria: normal intelligence,
        normal educational opportunities, no severe emotional problems, no
        neurological handicaps, good physical health, not taking other
        psychotropic medication, and scoring at least one and one half years
        below their mental age equivalent on the Gilmore Oral Reading Test.
        Non-verbal (auditory and visual) and verbal perceptual, and memory
        skills were examined, and reading, spelling, language and writing
        abilities were measured using standardized instruments. Compared to
        the placebo control group, individuals treated with piracetam did not
        show statistically significant improvements above their baseline
        scores on measures of perception, memory, language, reading accuracy
        or comprehension, or writing accuracy. However, reading speed and
        numbers of words written in a timed period were significantly enhanced
        in subjects treated with piracetam as compared to placebo. Effective
        reading and writing ability, taking both rate and accuracy into
        consideration, were also significantly improved in the piracetam as
        compared to the placebo treatment group. The medication was
        well-tolerated and medical examinations showed no significant adverse
        reactions. These results encourage further study of piracetam to
        determine more precisely the mechanism of action by which specific
        cognitive skills are affected.
        Piracetam-induced improvement of mental performance.

        Mindus P, Cronholm B, Levander SE, Schalling D.

        Acta Psychiatr Scand 1976 Aug;54(2):150-60

        A double-blind, intra-individual cross-over comparison of the mental
        performance of 18 aging, non-deteriorated individuals during two
        4-week periods of piracetam and placebo administration was performed
        using conventional and computerized perceptual-motor tasks. In a
        majority of these tasks the subjects did significantly better when on
        piracetam than on placebo, a finding consistent with ratings completed
        by two independent observers. The findings indicate new avenues for
        the treatment of individuals with reduced mental performance possibly
        related to disturbed alertness--a neglected group of psychiatric
        Randomized placebo-controlled double-blind cross-over study on
        antihypoxidotic effects of piracetam using psychophysiological
        measures in healthy volunteers.

        Schaffler K, Klausnitzer W.

        Institute for Pharmacodynamic Research,
        Munich, Fed. Rep. of Germany.
        Arzneimittelforschung 1988 Feb;38(2):288-91

        The effects of two acute doses (1600 mg, 2400 mg) of
        2-oxo-pyrrolidine-1-acetamide (piracetam, Normabrain) on hypoxia
        resistance were screened vs placebo in a randomized, double-blind
        3-way change-over design in 9 healthy male volunteers (mean age: 26.4
        +/- 3.5 years; mean body weight: 74.9 +/- 8.4 kg). Psychophysiological
        measurements were done with the oculodynamic test (ODT) for
        oculomotor, performatory and additional cardiorespiratory parameters.
        Intradiurnal assessments were done under normoxia (prevalue) and
        hypoxic hypoxidosis (1 hypoxic prevalue, 3 postdose values: 1.0, 2.5
        and 4.0 h) with a content of 10.5% O2 and 89.5% N2 in inspired air
        (hypoxic hypoxidosis)--as a model of brain dysfunctions, related with
        several types of senile dementia (Primary Degenerative Dementia =
        Alzheimer type; Multi Infarct Dementia). The results indicate that
        piracetam especially in its higher dose (2400 mg) displays
        antihypoxidotic effects already after a single administration in
        oculomotor, performatory and cardiorespiratory parameters.


        • #5
          Thanks guys! I've read a lot on studies on nootropics. They DO work on people for example with present problems with memory or have some medical problems. But there are very few, if any, done on bodybuilders or athletes.

          I've read some reviews about improved concentration during workouts, which is especially beneficial in dc's program which is real high intensity. If one can have improved focus on that one rp set and drive himself past his physical limits(if it possible)... wow! On the flip side, there are several who say its thrash..
          Consistency is the key

          Protein? Use this for a 5% discount at LVP931


          • #6
            well i know many that swear by the stuff and take a full range of the "smarties." in college, when i played baseball i actually had about 3 friends who would seriously swear by the stuff. they took aboug 6000 mg of piracetum per week (!), but they swore they never had that kind of concentration before.

            there is also a product that is out now by that company Ergopharm (Patrick Arnold's co.), and it is called i think just, "gaba" and it is supposed to give you laser focus. but who knows, and i could even be wrong on what it is called.

            but in all honesty, if you are thinking about putting in an order for pir/vin then you should just take that money and buy more protein or more food......but that is just my .02.

            Rock on, Shivan


            • #7
              Originally posted by Shivan
              but in all honesty, if you are thinking about putting in an order for pir/vin then you should just take that money and buy more protein or more food......but that is just my .02.
              lol! I'm with you on that one! I think its those low carb days thats making me crave for stuff.. which in this case are new supps. I'm taking all these results (improved concentration) with a pinch of salt. Improved concentration is a very subjective thing and i don't think can be measured. People who take it may have this sorta thinking that they are on something 'good' and they while they may have improved concentration, its all in the mind. The supp may jsut be a placebo to help them find concentration they had but they never knew they had.
              Consistency is the key

              Protein? Use this for a 5% discount at LVP931


              • #8
                i read a bunch of that stuff and got confused, and forgot what it meant, lol
                im not hardcore, im not cool, pretending any different would be acting the fool--- ill leave that to those who are good at it

                Training for the Proffesional Natural Olympia fall 2006




                • #9
                  Originally posted by berkshirebody
                  i read a bunch of that stuff and got confused, and forgot what it meant, lol
                  Hehe, buy some of those pills, use them, read the text again, and if you still can't figure it out.. you where fooled.


                  • #10
                    6000 mg of piracetam per week is a bit low, actually.

                    Everything is available in bulk now, and really quite cheap. I don't view these as a bodybuilding tool... I see it as an investment towards a better quality of life. No more feeling spaced out and forgetting shit all the time. Plus I just feel better and sharper all day.


                    • #11
                      well AssItch, let me just say that that is a phenomenal handle, and i applaud your aggressiveness towards making a point.......

                      so let me ask you, what nootropics do you take that make you feel "sharper,", and at what dosages, and more importantly, can you give me some examples of this "sharpness" that you talk of.

                      since you utilize these tools, i am curious.