Finding the right movement

[Adam2433]

I was reminded of an oft overlooked yet important tenet to DC training yesterday as I trained calves for the first time at a new gym...

You need to have enough experience and humility to be able to pick the 3 movements per bodypart that work best for you. Not the 3 movements that others are doing or are the coolest or even the most enjoyable. The 3 BEST. The ones that put each particular bodypart in the most advantageous position to grow. I will expand on that to add you need the same experience and probably even more humility to know what rep ranges work best for that movement.

My examples...

My calves suck. I have hit them with standing raises, seated raises and on the leg press. I have done drop sets, heavy weight, partials, etc. Yesterday I used an incline calf raise machine for the first time. WOW. My calves were put in such a great position! I felt an amazing stretch that I was able to hold but also had a much better contraction all the way through the rep. I had a similar experience using a donkey calf raise machine the time before that. Instead of bashing my head against the wall for how long I should have gotten away from what WASN'T working and found something that WAS.

Secondly, I love barbell curls as much as the next guy. And I love doing them heavy. I am quite strong at them in the 12-15rp range. But since switching to movements that get me a better stretch like db spider curls, incline curls, etc and upping my reps to the 20-25rp range I have seen MUCH better bicep development. Again, a little humility and a little less tunnel vision and I could have reaped these rewards a long time ago.

Don't be afraid to try new things out. You may find you like them. (Tell that to your girlfriends and wives too.)

[DOHCrazy]

Secondly, I love barbell curls as much as the next guy. And I love doing them heavy. I am quite strong at them in the 12-15rp range. But since switching to movements that get me a better stretch like db spider curls, incline curls, etc and upping my reps to the 20-25rp range I have seen MUCH better bicep development. Again, a little humility and a little less tunnel vision and I could have reaped these rewards a long time ago.

Do you find that the higher rep ranges on one armed movements wear you out as far as breathing goes, or, are you doing each arm separately?

[Sammich]

I haven't done DC in some time, but this is a great post. I credit my back width to discovering what lat movements work for me and only me, where I could really feel a huge stretch.

[Adam2433]

Do you find that the higher rep ranges on one armed movements wear you out as far as breathing goes, or, are you doing each arm separately?

Separate and take a break to catch my breath between. I do dumbbell rows the same way otherwise the second side would suffer.

[steel1970]

I haven't done DC in some time, but this is a great post. I credit my back width to discovering what lat movements work for me and only me, where I could really feel a huge stretch.

Sammich, what moves did you incorporate into you training for this? I'm asking cause I seem to be stalling on width movements rather quickly...I too try to get a very good stretch, but I don't seem to be getting much stronger....

Adam, good post. You gotta play with things sometimes to find the right groove....

[Adam2433]

Sammich, what moves did you incorporate into you training for this? I'm asking cause I seem to be stalling on width movements rather quickly...I too try to get a very good stretch, but I don't seem to be getting much stronger....

Adam, good post. You gotta play with things sometimes to find the right groove....

I don't want to speak for Sammich but I will tell you of my experience with back width lately and it parallels what Nate said...

I always thought my back width sucked but was never as lean as I am now at 9 weeks out so I couldn't be sure. I went to town with heavy wide chins, wide pulldowns, wide everything. A while back I decided to give more underhand stuff and some close grip (v handle) stuff a try. I felt my bis get a little more involved so I wasn't entirely convinced. But I also felt a much greater stretch so I kept with it anyway. Now that my waist has shrunk way down I can see that my back width is much better than I ever thought.

Was it the stretch from the underhand stuff? Can't be entirely sure but I will definitely keep them in the mix from now on.

[Michael Travis]

I was reminded of an oft overlooked yet important tenet to DC training yesterday as I trained calves for the first time at a new gym...

You need to have enough experience and humility to be able to pick the 3 movements per bodypart that work best for you. Not the 3 movements that others are doing or are the coolest or even the most enjoyable. The 3 BEST. The ones that put each particular bodypart in the most advantageous position to grow. I will expand on that to add you need the same experience and probably even more humility to know what rep ranges work best for that movement.

My examples...

My calves suck. I have hit them with standing raises, seated raises and on the leg press. I have done drop sets, heavy weight, partials, etc. Yesterday I used an incline calf raise machine for the first time. WOW. My calves were put in such a great position! I felt an amazing stretch that I was able to hold but also had a much better contraction all the way through the rep. I had a similar experience using a donkey calf raise machine the time before that. Instead of bashing my head against the wall for how long I should have gotten away from what WASN'T working and found something that WAS.

Secondly, I love barbell curls as much as the next guy. And I love doing them heavy. I am quite strong at them in the 12-15rp range. But since switching to movements that get me a better stretch like db spider curls, incline curls, etc and upping my reps to the 20-25rp range I have seen MUCH better bicep development. Again, a little humility and a little less tunnel vision and I could have reaped these rewards a long time ago.

Don't be afraid to try new things out. You may find you like them. (Tell that to your girlfriends and wives too.)

I think this is a very well put accurate post. I fell victim to this type of mentality a while back on back width myself regarding rack chins. I saw many people having them in their blast, so I decided to do them, and it just never felt right for me for whatever reason, but I kept them in longer than I should thinking, well, everyone else seems to be using them with success, and they are very popular with DC, so I'll just keep them in, and try to make it better. I eventually switched to weighted pull-ups and have felt a huge difference.

Anyway, great post and great reminder.

[darkguitars2000]

I eventually switched to weighted pull-ups and have felt a huge difference.

Same here.

[Sammich]

Sammich, what moves did you incorporate into you training for this? I'm asking cause I seem to be stalling on width movements rather quickly...I too try to get a very good stretch, but I don't seem to be getting much stronger....

Adam, good post. You gotta play with things sometimes to find the right groove....

It wasn't so much specific movements for me as learning to feel the stretch in the lats, to really rotate the scapula at the "bottom", and then to initiate the contraction with the lat and not the bicep. I think if I have one genetic advantage it's my shoulder/scapula construction; I was just built to have good biomechanics for back width. I can usually find the "stretch under load" position pretty easily with width movements.

[thedunhill225]

This is a point that anyone that weight trains should keep in mind. Many don't get it though, they seem to think that an ex they are "good at" means it is an ex that is good FOR them. Example is how many guys have we all seen with a full ribcage and shorter arms benching all the time? Now it may be a good ex (or may not be) but they keep doing it cause they have a short range of motion, good leverage and are good at it. If their chest keeps growing then fine but that is not always the case...yet they will do it every chest day cause they can move a good amount of wt on it.

I do have a question as far as DC is concerned. I have always believed that the variety of exercises is one of the most effective features of DC. But when I read the logs by DC trainees they seem to do pretty much the same exs blast after blast, not all of them but it seems like most. I was under the impression that exs are changed in blast when they stall and also changed from blast to blast...I am just about positive I read Dante talking about that. So I guess even if you find an ex that is perfect for you and your structure aren't you still supposed to rotate it in and out? I don't mean it has to be a drastic change cause any variation is still variation... Like if rv close grip pulldowns kill your back...shouldn't you maybe do parallel grip close grip pulldowns or rv grip chins or something? It just something I notice all the time reading the journals.

Peace.

[LG1]

Dun, I was under the impression that if the exercise is still "producing" for you, why change it for the sake of change???!!! Ride that mother....

[thedunhill225]

Dun, I was under the impression that if the exercise is still "producing" for you, why change it for the sake of change???!!! Ride that mother....

I can understand that but I am just about certain that in his writings Dante says to change the exs from blast to blast regardless. Sure I could have read something wrong but that's what I remember. Even if you were gonna ride it as long as you are gaining.... Why isn't everyone squating 800 for reps? I know that ain't gonna happen but that's just an example.... Seems like the large majority keep doing exs they "like" or think they "should" every blast even if they have stalled on them. Again I ain't saying everyone and I am not gonna go thru journals and say "john q public, Jane doe and harry palms are all doing incline smiths every blast and they have gone up an average of 19 lbs in the last year..." Cause that's just not right...everyone has different circumstances. Just that I have noticed that most seem to do the same thing over and over... And I didn't think that's what Dante prescribes.

[SkinnyMike42]

I don't want to speak for Sammich but I will tell you of my experience with back width lately and it parallels what Nate said...

I always thought my back width sucked but was never as lean as I am now at 9 weeks out so I couldn't be sure. I went to town with heavy wide chins, wide pulldowns, wide everything. A while back I decided to give more underhand stuff and some close grip (v handle) stuff a try. I felt my bis get a little more involved so I wasn't entirely convinced. But I also felt a much greater stretch so I kept with it anyway. Now that my waist has shrunk way down I can see that my back width is much better than I ever thought.

Was it the stretch from the underhand stuff? Can't be entirely sure but I will definitely keep them in the mix from now on.

Yes, wider grip resulting in a wider back is a myth. All it will do is put more strain on your shoulders.

Neutral chins/pulldowns are your best bet because it puts your biceps/forearms in the strongest position thus they do not tire as easily thus your back will get more work. Curl grip is a close second. Pronated grip is the worst of the 3 because your biceps/forearms are in a mechanically poor position and will fail very early.

[Michael Travis]

Yes, wider grip resulting in a wider back is a myth. All it will do is put more strain on your shoulders.

Neutral chins/pulldowns are your best bet because it puts your biceps/forearms in the strongest position thus they do not tire as easily thus your back will get more work. Curl grip is a close second. Pronated grip is the worst of the 3 because your biceps/forearms are in a mechanically poor position and will fail very early.

Kind of a blanket statement that may apply to you but not to everyone. Personally, I don't want my biceps/forearms in their strongest position when doing back. I want them taken out of the equation altogether. I want my back in the strongest position so its doing the most work. For me, this means using various grips at different times, but there is nothing inherently wrong with a pronated grip if you don't have shoulder issues to begin with. For me, using a pronated grip with straps on weighted pullups and pulldowns really hits my lats well.

[SkinnyMike42]

Kind of a blanket statement that may apply to you but not to everyone. Personally, I don't want my biceps/forearms in their strongest position when doing back. I want them taken out of the equation altogether. I want my back in the strongest position so its doing the most work. For me, this means using various grips at different times, but there is nothing inherently wrong with a pronated grip if you don't have shoulder issues to begin with. For me, using a pronated grip with straps on weighted pullups and pulldowns really hits my lats well.

No, it is not a blanket statement at all. The initial movement is always with a bend of your arms (biceps/forearms). You can't take them out of the equation, they will always be a failure point. You want them to be in the strongest position because of this. If they are in a weak position, you will find that your sets always have you failing at the bottom (arms) instead of midway up (lats). Just because they are in a stronger position does not mean you are using them more, it just means they will fail later on in the set (unless you are actively trying to do the set with biceps only, i.e bad form).

Try a closer grip neutral chin and really focus on pulling with your back. Then go back to your regular chins and report back. I would bet that you like the neutral chins better after doing them for a few workouts.


As for my claim of a wide chin causing a wider back being a myth, here is Dorian's take on that.

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/articles/training/2905-my-guide-to-building-a-better-back-by-dorian-yates.html

"Using a wide grip does not provide anywhere near a full range of motion for them. A narrower grip, in contrast, allows both a better stretch and a more complete contraction. If you don’t believe me, pantomime two types of pulldowns right now as you read this, doing your best to contract the lats as hard as possible: a wide-grip pulldown and a narrow, underhand grip. I guarantee you that you will feel a more powerful contraction of the lats with the narrow underhand grip."


Edit, Dorian's take on the biceps as well. I figured this out on my own well before I read this.

"A final reason to consider using a narrow grip beyond the issue of range of motion is the fact that it puts the biceps in a stronger position. Since the biceps are far smaller and weaker than the lats, putting them in a position where they are guaranteed to fail before the lats are properly stimulated, as in any wide-grip vertical pull, will cause you to shortchange your potential growth."