Low back overtraining

[NZ RABBIT]

Hey guys firstly I have looked high and low for the answer to the following;

I understand it is wise to be careful with how much direct and indirect work you perform with the lower back on the 2 way. Ie,

Squats on monday
Bent over rows on weds
Front squats on fri
Rack deads on mon etc etc

My question is what is the justification for paying particular attention to the lower back in particular versus say the biceps which could also go through an equal if not greater amount of direct and indirect work?

My hypothesis is because there is denser fascia in the thoracolumbar region which slows full recovery dt the decreased blood flow that fascia receives versus muscle?!

[Knickerbocker24]

I wouldn't want to justify or disagree with the split without seeing the rest of the exercises on those day and the volume of each. Have you read any of Dr. Stuart McGill's stuff? If not, I would highly recommend "Ultimate Back Fitness & Performance". I think it's really more of a global issue in regards to how you set up your entire program for balance and to avoid low back issues. One would be wise to pay attention to not just low-back and core, but the ankles, knees, hips, and shoulder/scapulae areas because pain or injury in the low back is often linked, caused, or at least associated with one of those other areas of dysfunction, imbalance, or from poor tissue quality and ROM.

[thedunhill225]

Larger muscles take longer to recover.
If your biceps isn't fully recovered you will most likely just have a bad bi or back day...if your lower back is weak you could blow out some discs.
I also know from exp that I can NOT hit my lower back more than once a week...I just can't do it. I think all should be careful as hell when it comes to their back. Hurt it bad enough and it will ALWAYS hurt.

[NZ RABBIT]

Larger muscles take longer to recover.
If your biceps isn't fully recovered you will most likely just have a bad bi or back day...if your lower back is weak you could blow out some discs.
I also know from exp that I can NOT hit my lower back more than once a week...I just can't do it. I think all should be careful as hell when it comes to their back. Hurt it bad enough and it will ALWAYS hurt.

Bingo! So what is it exactly about the lower back that causes you to only be able to train it once a week??

That region is not actually engulfed with large muscles.

[bluto]

Olympic Lifters

Olympic Lifters use there lower back every single time they train.

They can squat 4 times a week.

You need to condition it to the workload and bring the loads up slowly and consistantly. If you overtrain the lowerback you will need more than 7 days for it to recover. You can Squat and Deadlift 3 times a week if the voulume is low each session and weights brought up gradually and have delaod sessions.
Condition the body for what you gonna do next week and the week after that.

[Ken "Skip" Hill]

That region is not actually engulfed with large muscles.

It isn't? The errectors are quite large and they are slower to recover, no doubt.

I don't agree that squatting and doing deads 3 times a week at ANY volume is a good idea. Squatting 4 times a week? Can you elaborate on this please?

Skip

[Daniel7908]

Olympic Lifters use there lower back every single time they train.

They can squat 4 times a week.

You need to condition it to the workload and bring the loads up slowly and consistantly. If you overtrain the lowerback you will need more than 7 days for it to recover. You can Squat and Deadlift 3 times a week if the voulume is low each session and weights brought up gradually and have delaod sessions.
Condition the body for what you gonna do next week and the week after that.

I haven't read much about Olympic lifters except what some folks have written about them here, but don't they spend most of their time off from the gym recovering from their training by napping, eating and resting in a way that no one with a regular job and a life not dedicated nearly 100% to lifting could ever do?

[trucelt]

Skip there are quite a few programs with squatting 3x/week, Shieko comes to mind which is a hi-volume, lower to moderate intensity PL program, Chaos and Pain also advocates squatting multiple times per week but keep in mind they wave the volume and intensity and you usually only squat "hard" 1x/week....also generally only BB'ers train to failure.

[LG1]

Didn't want to start a new thread in the Pound Puppy section since I have a similar issue with lower back OT.

I am on my first DC blast and was thinking of switching up from rack deads below the knee to above the knee. What do you guys think of this? I think I have seen Dusty do something like this when he trained with/through a back injury.

Also, any thoughts on Trap Bar deads and Rack Deads from the Smith?

[Knickerbocker24]

No one has really mentioned anything from my post & that's OK, I don't mind. But, if anyone is having low back issues I can't recommend Dr. McGill's work enough. IMO he is the world leader in low back injuries. He has worked with the most challenging cases out there & worked with world class athletes from all around the world. Really...read it!

[Adam2433]

No one has really mentioned anything from my post & that's OK, I don't mind. But, if anyone is having low back issues I can't recommend Dr. McGill's work enough. IMO he is the world leader in low back injuries. He has worked with the most challenging cases out there & worked with world class athletes from all around the world. Really...read it!

Seeing as this is in the DoggPound I think it is assumed OP is training using the DC 2 way with the the typical set up and exercises listed in his original post.

[Knickerbocker24]

Seeing as this is in the DoggPound I think it is assumed OP is training using the DC 2 way with the the typical set up and exercises listed in his original post.

Adam...I'm not sure what you mean by your post. If I am reading between the lines here are you saying that because the poster is training DC style they don't have a use for knowledge of back function, it's physiology, mechanisms of low back injury, injury prevention, rehab, and developing programs to correct movement errors? Certainly the book goes beyond the context of the question, but my hunch is upon reading the book the understanding of how much volume the low back should get will be much better understood.

The question/hypothesis of "paying particular attention to the lower back...because there is denser fascia in the thoracolumbar region which slows full recovery dt the decreased blood flow that fascia receives versus muscle" can definitely be answered within the text.

[thedunhill225]

Olympic Lifters use there lower back every single time they train.

They can squat 4 times a week.

You need to condition it to the workload and bring the loads up slowly and consistantly. If you overtrain the lowerback you will need more than 7 days for it to recover. You can Squat and Deadlift 3 times a week if the voulume is low each session and weights brought up gradually and have delaod sessions.
Condition the body for what you gonna do next week and the week after that.

And cc sabathia throws 120+ pitches every 5th day (not counting his bulpen session in between starts)...how is that relevant? Well try as much as you want but I am sure that if you tried to do the same...your elbow and shoulder won't last regardless of how much conditioning you did. See he is a genetic freak... 99.9% of the population can't do that. Point just is that SURE you can find athletes that can do that...don't doubt it but to 99.9% of us that's about as relevant as how many pitches CC throws.

Remember also that OL's are training a skill and repetition breeds efficiency. There primary concern is perfecting a skill and not increasing muscle mass...or even strength.

[thedunhill225]

Seeing as this is in the DoggPound I think it is assumed OP is training using the DC 2 way with the the typical set up and exercises listed in his original post.

I'm pretty sure I've read Dante saying not to do that...the exs he has in his split that is. Like if you dead for back you should be doing leg presses for quads next work out.

This really is the problem I have with the dc split. I personally believe that legs and back should be trained together on a 2 way split.

[NZ RABBIT]

No one has really mentioned anything from my post & that's OK, I don't mind. But, if anyone is having low back issues I can't recommend Dr. McGill's work enough. IMO he is the world leader in low back injuries. He has worked with the most challenging cases out there & worked with world class athletes from all around the world. Really...read it!

Sorry first time back to the thread... didn't so much ignore your initial post in that we're not dealing with injury per se... but more of a 'pump' type of effect that takes more days to disappear than other regions.

IMO more or less like the pump you get from dbol... rather than an adhesion or nerve irritation.

Can someone explain why you get these pumps from dbol? And I believe there-in lies the answer. I've read the pump in the musculature stretches beyond what the fascia will allow at that point and hence the 'pump/restriction'.

It makes sense as the pumps don't seem to go on forever so the fascia develops more extensibility.

Anyone else's thoughts?