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Sacrificing Max Tension or Max Range?

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  • Sacrificing Max Tension or Max Range?

    Hi guys,
    Im new to this board but have been training with DC this year. Despite lots of disruptions have made great gains and continue to love this style training...

    Ok to my question, I train an anesthesiologist (hehe yes lots of benefits to that) and we speak constantly on the physiological aspects of training and he is a huge proponent of maximum tension on the muscle to grow, bottom line. I have been taking him through the DC workout this week and he loves it and is very intrigued with the science behind it but he is begging me to limit my range of motion to increase overal tension.

    I have been reading some of his physiology books and it does make sense because once the muscle is stretched beyond the resting length the (actin and myosin I think thats what they are called) fibers dont have a good grip on each other and it limits the tension the muscle can produce.
    Looking at some studies and graphs at how the tension within the muscle drops considerably this does make sense.
    He also says a benefit to lifting like this is that the muscles support the joints much more when they are in their optimum range.


    any thoughts??

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hyper
    Hi guys,
    Im new to this board but have been training with DC this year. Despite lots of disruptions have made great gains and continue to love this style training...

    Ok to my question, I train an anesthesiologist (hehe yes lots of benefits to that) and we speak constantly on the physiological aspects of training and he is a huge proponent of maximum tension on the muscle to grow, bottom line. I have been taking him through the DC workout this week and he loves it and is very intrigued with the science behind it but he is begging me to limit my range of motion to increase overal tension.

    I have been reading some of his physiology books and it does make sense because once the muscle is stretched beyond the resting length the (actin and myosin I think thats what they are called) fibers dont have a good grip on each other and it limits the tension the muscle can produce.
    Looking at some studies and graphs at how the tension within the muscle drops considerably this does make sense.
    He also says a benefit to lifting like this is that the muscles support the joints much more when they are in their optimum range.


    any thoughts??
    ATP has a lot to do with the allosteric regulation of protein activity, binding of the ATP at one site on myosin decreases the affinity of myosin for actin bound to another site on myosin. So ATP is acting as a modulator controlling the binding of actin and myosin.

    So ATP has two roles in cross-bridge cycle, one is the energy relased from ATP that provides the energy for bridge movemnet and two the binding of ATP top myosin breaks the link formed between catin and myosin during the cycle.

    I am not sure if that helped but if my old Human Phys class I do almost remember this well...
    "That damn log book"

    www.trueprotein.com Highest quality protein at the lowest price...

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    • #3
      Inhuman. sorry but I dont remember the book as well as you lol. in layman's terms please.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Hyper
        He also says a benefit to lifting like this is that the muscles support the joints much more when they are in their optimum range.
        I do understand that there are some musles that support joints but tendons are more supportive and with the muscle growing 5 times faster than tendons, I know you can run into joint problems...
        "That damn log book"

        www.trueprotein.com Highest quality protein at the lowest price...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Hyper
          Inhuman. sorry but I dont remember the book as well as you lol. in layman's terms please.
          Sorry I was just trying to remember how it was written, but at anygiven time during a contraction only 50% of the cross-bridges are attached to the thin filaments that are producing movement.

          So the force at any given time of the movement depends on the interactions of myosin is the thick filament and actin the thin filament and the energy to do provided by ATP.

          Myosin has a round head with a tail that lies on the thick filament which formes the cross bridge, it has a enzme site for the actin to bind to ATPase.

          Myosin binds very firmly to actin and this link must be broken in order to allow the cross bridge to reattach to a new actin molucule and then repeat the cycle.

          Ok my head is going to explode, I must find food...
          "That damn log book"

          www.trueprotein.com Highest quality protein at the lowest price...

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          • #6
            Hey IH,
            I think what Hyper is referring to is (according to the sliding filament theory) as you stretch the muscle into a fuller eccentric contraction there is less surface area of the two filaments in contact with one another so there is not as much surace to get a grip on. For example:

            Fully stretched position:

            AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
            ---------------------------------------------MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

            Partially stretched position:

            AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
            ----------------------MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

            If we imagine the A's are actin and the M's are myosin in the second example we see that there is more overlap between the two giving them more grabbing area.

            So, from a leverage standpoint there may be something to the fact more weight can be used. Also, obviously if the muscle is in a "half stretched" position there is less potential danger to the joint than if it is in the fully stretched position (like in the bottom of a heavy dip for example) and of course we can use more weight if we do 1/2 reps but that doesn't truly mean maximum stress is placed on the muscle. Also, who's to say that putting stress on the muscle in the fully stretched position doesn't contribute to growth more than stressing the fibers in other positions (no one knows for sure at this point in time).

            Try this: Take a broomstick and place a ten lb plate at one end then try to lift it up by gripping the other end of the broom stick. Now, remove the 10lb weight and put a 25lb wieght on it but right next to your hand. Which is easier to lift? The 25lbs obviously. Which way provided more tension? The 10lbs obviously.

            Who gets bigger legs? The kid squatting 500 lbs over a 6 inch range or the guy squatting 315 to the floor? Which method puts more tension on the quad muscle itself? If you use angles and force vectors you will find that the actual stress on the muscle is greater at the bottom of the movement with 315 than 500 in the 1/2 squat position. Also, since it is probably more stressful for the muscle to contract from a position of greater disadvantage (less contact between the two filaments) than a position of greater advantage-wouldn't it stand to reason that the more stressful contraction would be a greater stimulus for growth?
            Last edited by sammysdad; 08-25-2004, 02:19 PM.

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            • #7
              Hey thanx Mike, I will just blame it on low carbs, hehe...
              "That damn log book"

              www.trueprotein.com Highest quality protein at the lowest price...

              Comment


              • #8
                Sammysdad,
                Thank you. Yeah Inhuman I think I may have written that weird so it was hard to catch my gist.
                SD that is what I was looking for, but each lift it would be different because of mechanics and the geometry of the joints and such.
                But for my example I will use incline press as this is what we did yesterday. I usually do them to my chest just lightly touching then to about 4" lock out. After watching me perform this set he said once I was 6" and closer to my chest he could actually see the tension release in my chest and it made sense because I have alway benchpressed using a lot of deltoid.
                He thought I could maintain a higher level of tension to the muscle and keep it longer if I stopped my rep right about 6" from my chest and then up from there....
                I am a firm believer that Time under tension and total tension is a big player in muscle hypertrophy. I think this plays directly into what DC preaches, you want to get proggressivly stronger so you can continue to place the muscle under increasing tension loads.

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                • #9
                  Hyper,
                  I dont see how it's physically possible for your chest to become uninvolved at any point without the bar crashing down to your chest-as evidenced when a pec tears- (no matter what your freind could "see") but if you say so..................

                  I would love to hear DC's thoughts on this. By the way in the 20 something years I've been around this sport I don't think I have ever seen a pro (and I've seen tons) or anyone with good chest development for that matter stop their presses 6" off the chest. Quite the contrary usually most (but not all) of the big guys will stop 6" short of lockout. I even knew one guy who only did the bottom 6-8" and he won the heavyweight division of the Nationals back in the early 90's and his pecs were thick as shit. His name was Mark Diamond if anyone was around back then and is curious.

                  Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you wouldn't grow from stopping there and maybe you would save your shoulder joints some wear and tear. However, I have seen a trainer (who is also a PT) where I work/workout have his clients (as well as himself) go to the point where his upper arms are paralell to the ground and niether he nor any of them have a teacup worth of muscle on their chests.

                  Anyway, try it. Maybe you'll be the one that shows us all it's possible and we'll all be saying we should have tried it years ago................

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                  • #10
                    IH,
                    You never gave us your opinion on wether stopping short is a good idea or not.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by sammysdad
                      IH,
                      You never gave us your opinion on wether stopping short is a good idea or not.
                      Well I do not bounce on any rep of anything but I do come all the way down to my pecs then I go all the way up just a tad before lockout, I do not want to have the tension taken off the muscle and be on my bone structure, when I do static pumps after my workset is done I keep the bar 6" off my pecs and do 2" pumps for as long as possible with the same weight I used in the workset.

                      Now when I was having major shoulder problems I had to adjust my benching to what did not hurt my rotators so much and I did have to stop shy of my pecs due to my hands being in a little closer due to shoulder problems, but now I cannot still go very wide on the bar without pain in my rotators.

                      I do not think that short of a movement could possibly be all that good in muscle development, but we all do react to different stimulant...
                      "That damn log book"

                      www.trueprotein.com Highest quality protein at the lowest price...

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                      • #12
                        Hyper, Very good post, thank you...
                        "That damn log book"

                        www.trueprotein.com Highest quality protein at the lowest price...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ???????????????????

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                          • #14
                            Sammys dad,
                            What I meant was the chest doesn't become uninvolved but it shifted the emphasis to some degree to the front delts.
                            Guys before anyone gets upset or whatever Im not advocating running around doing partials and I still perform squats ass to the grass and do full range of motion. I am just bringing up this topic for review from you guys. Because from what I see It does make sense to limit your range of motion some what to keep the tension as high as possible.

                            Just some thoughts I just wnated your thoughts.
                            And im the first to admit that the medical community is years behind the bodybuilding world as far as hormones and training go.

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                            • #15
                              sammys dad I second that... IH are you being serious? if so thanks.

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