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  • Please check the Round Table Romper Room


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  • #2
    This is relevant to my interests...


    • #3
      I have to agree with you, Skip. I've been doing Mountain Dog style training (based off his articles). While I am not anywhere near as strong as I was when I was younger, I have made excellent gains with this style. It also allows me to train with less pain.
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      • #4
        This is going to be a good one.
        I actually use a combo of the two though, I think that should be discussed as well. I don't measure TUT, but use primarily the "middle" of the ROM(about 3/4 of a full rep, just not the top and bottom) to increase TUT, but I also aim to progress in poundage and or reps from workout to workout.
        Last edited by [email protected]; 04-21-2011, 08:39 PM.
        Heavy squats fix everything.


        • #5
          I have recently made a noticeable increase in muscle mass which i attribute to making a conscious effort to increase my TUT by way of slow motion(5 secs up/ 5 secs down for 6-10 reps) sets that i have added to my training the last couple of months.


          • #6
            I think it might be , at least for me , a combination of the two , rather than one vs the other.
            "An egg yolk is a terrible thing to waste"


            • #7
              I think of some arm wrestler's arm when thinking about TUT. If you just google image search arm wrestlers there are atleast a couple of photos with dudes with one huge arm and the rest of their body leaves more to be desired. But I don't know if that's strictly from them arm wrestling or only working out that one arm or a combo of both, too many variables.


              • #8
                I would like to push the TUT concept a little further and ask the question " is it only the TUT for the single set you are doing, or is it more of a cumilative TUT during the entire workout?". I know that there have been studies done that a TUT of 30-45 seconds is optimal for hypertrophy. Now you could do a set that lasts 40 seconds, or you could to two sets that last 20 seconds with a heavier weight. I personally think that cumilative TUT is a more important factor. This helps explain how olympic weightlifters develop huge legs even though they rarely go above 4 reps but do multiple sets.


                • #9
                  There are a whole lot of seats on the Titanic, and they are all gonna end up in the same place.
                  I will first say that I think TUT IS progressive overload...only the overload is in intensity as opposed to repetitions or weight. Without the "progressive" component, there really wouldn't be any physical changes. Skip, you say that you were at your "strongest" in 2002/3. I am willing to bet that you can perform movements in the fashion that you do now better than you could then.

                  The cadence count of TUT keeps the repetitions/sets consistent and honest while ensuring that the negative is not overlooked. In the constent battle to "beat the logbook" we all will do what is necessary to get those reps. What that means is that sometimes a trainee will short the negative in order to get more reps or raise the training weight. So did you really increase if you did 11 reps in the exact same time that you did 10 the session before? This is the value of timed repetitions or TUT.

                  In "cycles for pennies", Dante suggested like a 4 to 6 second negative. I know that this is now not considered part of the evolved DC training, but I can understand, for the reasons above, why he would have originally included it.

                  Also, the addition of a training cadence such as TUT keeps the training safer by negating some momentum. I am starting to appreciate this now that I am 40.

                  If you perform a movement in the exact same fashion and strive to become stronger (by reps or weight) in that movement, it is still a form of progressive resistance. We have to not think of resistance as JUST weight, but stimulus. If we train in that fashion and strive to become more proficient, than we are progressing.

                  Lots of work to do tonight, or else I would like to continue.
                  Last edited by LearningDC; 04-22-2011, 12:48 AM.
                  2008 WABDL World Bench Press Champioships, 2nd place 275lb submaster division state record bench press
                  2001 WABDL World Record Breaker Bench Press Championships 1st place 275lb class
                  2000 USPF Regional Championships 1st place 275lb division
                  1999 USPF NorthWest Reigional Championships 1st place, 275lb division
                  1998 USAPL State Championships 1st place 275lb division
                  1997 AAU State Championships 1st place 275lb division
                  1997 USPF State Championships 1st place 275lb division
                  + more


                  • #10
                    I am a big believer in progressive overload. It is the most accurate measure of training progress and should be the cornerstone of any program. As was touched on previously, it can come in many forms. For example incline benching 315 for 10 with ballistic fast reps and later being able to incline 315 for 10 with a 4 second negative, the weight is the same, the reps are the same but you have without a doubt gotten stronger. Personally I prefer the simple approach of progressive overload, adding reps and or adding weight on a consistent basis. The training I have been doing for over a year now revolves around having one big compound movement per workout and really focusing on getting stronger on it, just pure moving weight with good form. All of the movements done afterwards are done with a multiple set approach and paying a special emphasis on form and making sure the target muscle is being worked to it's full potential. It's on these movements where the TUT concept that skip is talking about resonated with me personally because I have seen the effects of it. Now I don't want any of the DC vets to take my post as me knocking DC in any shape or form. DC is a great program that gets results and I have been reading the dogg pound on a regular basis because there is a ton of great information here even for someone who isn't training DC. I always found the TUT concept really interesting because it's a contributing factor to total training volume.


                    • #11
                      Progresive overload+Proper form (most prouctive ROM and TUT) = Grow
                      I hate to simplify it so much but it is what it is...


                      • #12
                        exactly. Don't use a training method-TUT, pre-exhaust as an excuse to neglect the need to do better-weight or reps- next time. Doing the same thing over and over without progressing will leave you where you are now.
                        Originally posted by betito View Post
                        Progresive overload+Proper form (most prouctive ROM and TUT) = Grow
                        I hate to simplify it so much but it is what it is...
                        Carlos Rodriguez
                        IFBB Pro League BBer
                        IFBB Pro League Judge
                        NPC National Judge
                        As iron sharpens iron so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. Prov 27:17


                        • #13
                          Interesting topic, I'll definitely be following this discussion.
                          Disclaimer: I am not a DC trainee/expert/guru/coach, anything I say is purely my opinion based on experience and research I've read


                          • #14
                            The real question here is where is the sweet spot.

                            homonunculus just made an awesome post pointing out the fact that progressive overload can come from many aspects, force (load), duration (time under tension), and volume (sets x reps x load).

                            I.e. TUT and progressive overload were not separated at birth.

                            We all know from experience that trying to increase our 1 rep max doesn't do a whole lot for hypertrophy, neither does trying to increase our 100 rep max.

                            So not all forms of progressive overload are going to be optimal for building muscle.

                            So want do we want?

                            (1) We know we want a great pump.

                            (2) We know we want to produce a significant amount of lactic acid with its assorted benefits.

                            (3) We know we want to lift the heaviest weights possible.

                            Focusing to much on the (1) and (2) is going to interfere with (3) and Vice versa.

                            We could accomplish all three of these things many different ways.

                            We could use rest pausing i.e. Doggccrap training.

                            We could simply perform our reps much slower i.e. what Skip does.

                            Or we could separate these aspects by performing a heavy set then after a few minutes performing a burn set i.e. what a lot of the old-school people did.

                            Another is to Pre-fatigue the muscle for (1)(2) then performing a compound exercise with heavy weight for (3).

                            Again, another is to use constant tension i.e. branch warren style to accomplish all three at the same time.

                            Which one of these works best is something for you to find out your self.
                            "Your "secret" is when you finally believe in something" -- Dante

                            "I looked at things with a microscope when a sledgehammer would have done" -- Dante