What can I expect naturally?

[x77]

Hi,

I know this may seem like a dumb ass question but just what can I expect to gain in terms of strength over the next few years with a proper diet and DC training?

5 years ago I stopped training (apart from the very occasional w/o in my garage) but I achieved the following with gear:

Height 5'8, weight 260lbs
Arms 21"
Chest 52"
Waist 38"
Quads 30" at top

Best strength:

Bench Press 430lbs 5 reps, 300lbs 21 reps
Squat (ass to floor) 530lbs 6 reps
Bent rows 300lbs, perfect form 20 reps 390lbs 10 reps
Dips, full and deep 190lbs + bodyweight
Standing BB press/military press 250lbs 10 reps
DB Curls 100lbs 6 reps
BB Curls 190 10 reps
Deadlifts 560lbs 3 reps
Wrist curls 160lbs 10 reps

I started at a weigt of 110lbs with just under 10" arms flexed, I have a small frame and I'm not naturally strong. After 5 years layoff and eating like a fat slob I am now 230lbs 41" waist, arms are 18". I am currently Bench pressing 230lbs for 6 reps after 6 weeks of training.

When I hit my previous best I was using lots of test but one major problem was that I was working 60+ hours a week in a very heavy manual job and getting up at 5am, I now work from home on my computer so my recovery will be so much better, not sure about age though, I am now 33 years old.

If eat well, e.g 300 grams of protein a day, carbs (trial and error due to sitting on my ass all day long) what kind of gains should I be expecting? If I can bench 300lbs for 6 full reps naturally I will be happy. I have made all the usual mistake in the past like everyone, such as too many carbs, no negatives, volume training, too much gear, crash and burning after cycles e.t.c

Due to many factors I now wish to train naturally and have no interest in using AAS, not that I see anything wrong in it, its just not for me any longer. I have got the same excitement and motivation back for training that I did all those years ago. In the past I just couldn't train without gear, now I feel like I am on gear all the time, e.g plenty of energy, good pump, better mindset.

Am I just fooling myself to think I can put on substantial size along with some fat loss without AAS? Comments welcome, thanks.

Pete

[In-Human]

x77, Welcome to the board, I remember you from some board and I think I replied to you somewhere.

Very nice numbers and stats, you are huge, I am off to the gym and I am sure some guys will chime in and tell you whats up with their gains...

[Richard85]

im not experienced but I would concentrate on losing the fat first

[x77]

In-human: those stats are what I *was*, not what I am now, unfortunately... I have posted a little on Muscle Mayhem, I glanced upon DC's post and found my way over here

Richard85: I see your point but with being natural I would lose what muscle I currently have. The plan is to stay around the same weight but lose a bit of fat and gain a bit of muscle and keep going like that until I have basically lost a good chunk of fat and put on a good chunk of muscle. In only a few weeks I can see a difference and I have actually lost a few pounds but the mirror tells me I have gained some muscle. I just want to avoid wasting time dieting... comments welcome.

I am also hoping some kind of muscle memory, if there is such a thing in reality, will help me along.

[The Munster]

x77,
Welcome to IM.
I think you can expect some pretty awesome gains for two reasons, primarily.
1. DC training is well known (for those in the know) for putting on lots of mass fast in natural trainees.
2. A certain amount of muscle memory will help you along.

Two things:
If you are going to train DC style, or any intense manner, up your protein. Take in at least 2g of protein per lb of bodyweight. I know you have fat you want to lose but don't worry about the large amount of protein preventing fat loss. The training is so intense, your body will be starving for the protein constantly.
Second, for losing the fat with minimal, if any, muscle loss, do the following. On non weight lifting days do 45 minutes low intensity cardio first thing in the morning, but take in 30-35 grams protein from a protein shake 10-15 minutes before you start. Also, follow a carb cutoff. Don't eat carbs after a certain point in the day.

Best of luck. Stick around and keep asking questions.

[jimpaul]

Yes welcome to the board! I believe that along with the proper eating and training (Dante's) and also with your previous stats (muscle memory) that you can expect the best gains naturally. Best of luck and welcome to the world of pain and growth!

jim

[sammysdad]

X77,
Welcome,
My opinion is that you should get your protein up around 500g make sure your getting some healthy fats and keep your carbs low. Even though your old numbers are "gear assisted" you should still be ablke to shoot right back up to a good percentage of that. If you did 430 for 5 and 300 for 21 I don't care what you took to get it you should be able to get to 300 for 6 no problem. Just follow DC's workout and go up 10 lbs per week (or when ever it cycles back around) on your bench. Even keeping your carbs low I'd be willing to bet you'll be at 300 for more than 6 within 7-8 weeks when you hit that weight. I actually have been around this sport along time and have seen many ex-users come back and try doing it naturally. The one's with a good plan (and I've seen no better than DC's) make an awesome comeback. Usually they get stronger than they thought they could without gear but obviously not quite as strong as they could with. The ones who just try to wing it with their old workouts quickly become burned out and/or go back to using and finally give it all up and say "There's no way I can be big and strong with out it so why bother?" I've been through it all myself and I can tell you this; before some recent injuries I was almost to my previous best. It took me over 10 years (the first 6-7 making plenty of mistakes) but what else was I going to do with my time. Once my injuries are taken care of I belive I will past my previuos best because I will no longer make the mistakes that held me back. Feel free to PM me anytime if you want to discuss this as I went through total hell for a while and have helped plenty of other's make the transition without the mistakes. By the way, congratulations on making the descision not to give up on yourself just becuase you are no longer assisted.

[x77]

Thanks so much for all the positive replies and advice, it is much appreciated.

The Munster : Thanks for the recommendation, I'll certainly be starting some cardio at lowish intensity.

jimpaul : thanks for the encouragement

sammysdad : I was always under the impression 250 to 300 grams of protein was enough, infact more than enough, so 500 looks a little high from what I am used to previously. I will though be shooting for 400 to 500 grams a day since high protein seems to be the key here and rather than coming at this with a 'do what I have always done attitude' I want to embrace new ideas in the hope to generate some half decent gains.

The reason behind not wanting to juice is due to past experiences with bad temper and severe acne, both of which have now dissappeared totally and the risk for me personally is too much.

This will really be an interesting experiment, I'll keep an accurate log along with pics, in a month or two I'll put up a site which should hopefully show some improvements.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good protein powder? I looked at trueprotein.com but the shipping to the UK is $140 which is a bit steep, although having said that I may still place an order, the pound is strong against the dollar.

Pete

[Doggcrapp]

That doesnt sound like the right shipping cost at all---please email us at [email protected] with how many lbs you want and we will get you a shipping quote

[In-Human]

The reason behind not wanting to juice is due to past experiences with bad temper and severe acne, both of which have now dissappeared totally and the risk for me personally is too much.

That is exactly what I like to hear. I tell many a juicer that if you have a bad temper or acne before you start it will only get worse, a lot worse, very smart move on your part.

Muscle has the best memory if you did not eat it all away with very poor diet for a long period of time.

You stick with this program and you will see if you keep your protein high and your workouts very intense and you give it 110% everytime, you will see gains like never before...

[In-Human]

x77, Yes diet is of major concern here, you must eat to and past the point where you want to be, if you cannot push yourself with protein then you will overtrain on this program for sure and gains will be cut down, you must eat and eat big, but eat smart, not everything insight like someone I know...

[SuperSport]

x77-Welcome back to the game and welcome to IM!

As for losing some fat...just remember that as you add muscle your basal metabolic rate will increase which in itself will help to burn bodyfat...even while you are resting.

So load up that bar with some big weight, load up the diet with some big protien, and tear some stuff up at the gym my man......

[x77]

In-Human : thanks for the replies, I have no problem with the diet. Working at home gives me access to food any time I like and I am finding I can eat loads of protein while keeping the carbs under control.

SuperSport : Even in a few short weeks I can see some changes in body composition, size isn't much different but shape certainly is.

DC : I got the shipping rates, probably a bit too high so I'll be using a UK supplier who has a good reputation.. in the UK we pay more for everything

I'll frequent this board often and hopefully be able to give something back too.

Thanks again, all your input is very much appreciated and will definitely help to keep me motivated.

Pete

[berkshirebody]

expecty to get big, think big, eat big and train big and you will get........well of course BIG

[1369phil]

x77 - PM me about protein - I have some contacts here in the UK and might be able to get some (at least) competative prices.
Might be an idea to tell me any brand or product preferences as well.