Hey Dante.........

[Iabadman]

I hope things are well my friend .......Things are slowly looking up ,although I fracutred my arm a couple of weeks ago and it has put a damper on my training.....Anyway big guy.......What is the deal with Phil ? He seems to not be advocate of your training at all. He is a good guy and extremely bright , but he seems to be in total disagreement of everything that you advocate. Does he really believe that you can grow while staying lean and only comsuming 300 grams of protien a day ? Why do you think he feels this way ? He doesn't even like your training style........I believe your style has been developed through trial and error , observation , and through great insight and research. I was bummed what he said about Chris 250 and I hope it doesn't mess with his head too much.....he is doing great and is working incredibly hard......[ he will do just fine] Please don't think I am trying to stir things up between you two [ you both know better] I am just wondering if you two mamoths have debated the subject of gaining mass before and what was the result of that discusion. I know you two are friends and this issue has had to have come up. What were his opinions based on? You know that I have been around the block a few times and have some of my own ideas when it comes to training.........but when it comes to putting mass on people, I find that there are no other methods out there that will put mass on in the quickest time possible time than what you suggest ......Your methods are simple , but well thought out , and effective . They can be proven time and time again with observation. Where did Phil arrive at his ideas ? And has he ever tried your methods? Phil is a great guy and an unbelievable bodybuilder but has he ever given you a chance to open his mind? I think if he gave you a chance he would be quite pleasantly suprized. What do you think ? Could he know something that we don't ? I would have started this at Pro Muscle but I feel it would have been taken too personal over there and that is not my intent what so ever.......I just feel that you two are both great minds , but why are you so far apart when it comes to training and eating for mass.......Like I said , does he know something that we don't ? What is your take on this subject ........I look foreward to you going in depth on this one pal......LOL!

[In-Human]

Iabad, If I may say something here, thats why I don't frequent Pro Muscle too much, you have to be on Phil's side or just forget it, you can't really have your own opinion on training since he is a pro, just my .02 cents worth...

[USMuscle9403]

What did he say about Chris? Why would Phil dispute something that OBVIOUSLY works for tons and tons of people. I believe Henry will agree with me though, most pros are very nice guys but are ABSOLUTELY PIG HEADED about their own training programs. They wanna think they know everything and that what they are doing is the best training available. Just an observation.

[nemo]

i dont believe the philosophies behind phil's and dante's training differs that much if you think about it. they both advocate training with decreased volume and increased frequency. dante's just seems geared to the average trainee while phil's is for someone with fantastic recovery abilities. originally dante suggested working a bodypart 3 times in 9 days, which he later backed down to 2 times in 8, while phil says 3 times in 7.

as for diet, protein quantities, and offseason leaness they are on completely different ends of the spectrum. i think that can be easily explained. if you are a complete genetic freak, pro caliber type you know like phil, perhaps you can gain tons of muscle with relatively little protein and stay lean while doing it. the average joe, like most of the guys dante trains, would get nowhere doing the same however.

[USMuscle9403]

Well not just that, but the fact that Phil is a genetically freaky professional bodybuilder and Dante's program is simply made for those of us with middle-of-the-road+ genetics and who have exhausted all other means of training

[nemo]

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=7947

i see what iabadman is talking about here.

[Doggcrapp]

J I just put up my reply on pro-muscle

[The Munster]

Good response, Dante.

[In-Human]

I just can't get in through my head why its always defend, defend, defend this program, why do people not see what has happened to 100% of trainees that do this program to the end.

Is it proof in the pudding, or proof in the mass that people gain. I fully understand this is not the norm, but dammit it does work, why does everything need to be knocked before its tried even once?...

[jrey]

Good reply Dante. Like you said, Phil has super genetics and that altered his opinion. Let's hear a different response from someone with less than stellar genetics. All the people on this board are a testament to your system. The workouts are hard and the eating is hard- you know I struggle with that. It will pay off, if given time and effort.

[rowtogrow]

Great Response Dante. You always paint a realistic picture when you prove your points so even a bumb ass like myself understands it.

The DoggFather :rocker:

[PTAaron]

People with "super genetics" really have very little business advising people who have "less than good genetics" for muscle building...
Almost as ridiculous as Ronnie Coleman giving people bicep training advice - when he says himself in his video that he doesn't even have to train his to get them to grow!

As far as always having to defend the program - it has to get really tiring for Dante... but it is a fact that it does work!! I've gained more strength in the last 2 months on every lift than I have in the past year of high volume training...

[Massive G]

PHIL..you never know how to take him as he really didn't respond.
Having first hand experience with Personal consulatation by PHIL..his program is only for those genetically gifted..superior genetics...that's all I'll say as I thought I had awesome genes but..cutting protein isn't gonna help the cause.

[MsteveM]

I just can't get in through my head why its always defend, defend, defend this program, why do people not see what has happened to 100% of trainees that do this program to the end.

Is it not proof in the pudding, or proof in the mass that people gain. I fully understand this is not the norm, but dammit it does work, why does everything need to be knocked before its tried even once?...

because its just that good. i mean, the results that this way of training gives many people are just as good as the results that fake, BS scamming programs promise... and because lots of people just can't conceive the fact that many have a greater potential to gain than what they realize. not to mention the fact that people want to beleive that what they are doing works.

[PTAaron]

not to mention the fact that people want to beleive that what they are doing works.

I think you summed it up right there man...
It is hard to hear that what you have been doing for 10-11 years was FAR from the most efficient way of building muscle!