Amp: why shoot this vaso if you're using a topical?

[partyboynyc]

please excuse my ignorance on this. i'm completely new to competition prep. i have possted this qquestion on my other board three times and apparently no one can answer this.
if i'm using a topical vasodilator why should i shoot 10 ml's of AMP before a show?what type of effects does this illicit that the topical won't?again, please excuse my elementary question, but again i am new to this and i want to cover every base.thank guys!!

[IM^]

Topical vasodilators work by heating the skin surface, causing the veins to rise to the surface to dissipate heat. This is purely a "mechanical" effect, and you need to keep in mind that it will depend on the extent of the absorption of the vasodilator into the skin, which is rarely substantial. This means that it doesn't work to a very marked degree.

AMP on the other hand, works via the IM route, meaning it will place a large amount of adenosine monophosphate right in the bloodstream. Obviously, the effect which this will have compared to a simple "mechanical" dermal effect will be much higher.

Just for clarity, let me explain the mechanism of action of adenosine as regards its vasodilatory properties.

Extracellular adenosine accumulates and binds to cell-surface A1 and A2 purine receptors where it is thought to induce vasodilation. Factors known to increase extracellular adenosine concentrations are:

• introduction of exogenous adenosine, eg, Adenoscan® (adenosine), or AMP in some cases (Adenoscan® is a pharmacologic stress agent given intravenously to dilate coronary arteries and increase bloodflow in some cardiac tests)
• increased production due to tissue ischemia, eg, exercise.
• decreased cellular re-uptake due to the blocking effects of nucleoside transport inhibitors, eg, dipyridamole.

Although the exact mechanism is not known, there is evidence that vasodilation is related to the inhibition of the slow inward calcium current, reducing calcium uptake, and activation of adenylate cyclase by A2 receptors in smooth muscle cells. Adenosine may also lessen vascular tone by modulating sympathetic neurotransmission.

Thus, as you can see, the effects of the endogenous method will far outweigh the topical application procedure.

As a side note to all of this, you may like to keep in mind when using amp for a contest that methylxanthines (such as caffeine and theophylline) are competitive antagonists of adenosine, competing for A2 cell-surface receptor sites. As such, adenosine vasoactivity is reduced in the presence of these substances.

Hope this helps clarify the situation for you.

[Ken Skip Hill]

Originally posted by IM^

As a side note to all of this, you may like to keep in mind when using amp for a contest that methylxanthines (such as caffeine and theophylline) are competitive antagonists of adenosine, competing for A2 cell-surface receptor sites. As such, adenosine vasoactivity is reduced in the presence of these substances.

Are these the only two antagonists that you know of and what exactly is theophylline? I don't recognize it.

Skip

[Ken Skip Hill]

Partyboy:

Let me paraphrase what IM said:

using a topical is like spraying ant killer on an ant.

using AMP is like dotonating a granade on an ant.

Was that clear enough? LOL

Skip

[Blade]

How safe is this?

[Ken Skip Hill]

I have not heard of any problems other than you aren't supposed to use it if you are asthmatic. There were alot of guys a couple years ago that would use 10ml before prejudging and 10 ml again before the night show and alot of them were passing out and hitting the floor after the second dose. The second dose just isn't needed. 10 ml in the a.m. will ride all day long provided you are conditioned as you should be and continue to eat throughout the day.

It will also keep you from cramping and I mean even when your electrolytes are really fucked up. I don't know why this is but I have only had one client in the past 3 years cramp at all while using it.

Skip

[IM^]

Originally posted by Skip
Partyboy:

Let me paraphrase what IM said:

using a topical is like spraying ant killer on an ant.

using AMP is like dotonating a granade on an ant.

Was that clear enough? LOL

Skip

I look at your explanation and I look at mine and I wonder which is really the best. I think that, in certain situations, less eloquence and more verve and aplomb are what is required. Hehehehe.

[IM^]

Originally posted by Skip
Are these the only two antagonists that you know of and what exactly is theophylline? I don't recognize it.

Skip

No, those were the two that I popped off the top of my head and are the most commonly encountered adenosine antagonists. Theobromine is another one that comes to mind. Another famous member of this group is...chocolate. They occur in many common food plants such as coffee, tea, cocoa, maté and cola and, of course, chocolate.

Theophylline belongs to a class of medications called bronchodilators, used in treating asthma and other airway diseases. There are numerous generic products on the market. Brand names include Theo-Dur, Respbid, Slo-Bid, Theo-24, Theolair, Uniphyl and Slo-Phyllin. It is probably best avoided in patients with a tendency to cardiac arrhythmia or patients with liver disease.

[homonunculus]

Originally posted by Skip
Are these the only two antagonists that you know of and what exactly is theophylline? I don't recognize it.

Skip

If it helps, caffeine, theophylline and theobromine are methylxanthines, which are structurally very similar to adenosine, basically just another purine with a methyl group attached. Thus, they also bind the A2 sites.

I like the ant analogy. It might need a little tuning up.

Topical is kinda like spraying an ant with ant killer.

Injecting is like sticking a (very, very small) grenade up an ant's ass and detonating it. LOL

IM^, would you care to comment on safety issues with the use of injectable AMP?...

-R

[Ken Skip Hill]

Originally posted by homonunculus
If it helps, caffeine, theophylline and theobromine are methylxanthines, which are structurally very similar to adenosine, basically just another purine with a methyl group attached. Thus, they also bind the A2 sites.

I like the ant analogy. It might need a little tuning up.

Topical is kinda like spraying an ant with ant killer.

Injecting is like sticking a (very, very small) grenade up an ant's ass and detonating it. LOL

IM^, would you care to comment on safety issues with the use of injectable AMP?...

-R

LOL

Okay, yours WAS better.

Skip

[dpsquat]

hey

i consider myself an avid guina pig and have used this stuff(AMP) with mixed results

first time was 2002 jr nationals no cramp (slight) but good viens timing is crucial!
second 2002 Usa's no cramp no luck no place LOL
third 2003 warm up work OK
fourth 2003 jr's well didtn do didly then and i cramped also.. note i was way depepted almost to a pt of no return!!!


veins do make you lean
personlay i would much rather show separation then veins though

[IM^]

Originally posted by homonunculus
IM^, would you care to comment on safety issues with the use of injectable AMP?...

-R

OK here goes. Basically, adenosine's primary effect is vasodilation. Visually, you can see this effect by a greatly increased subdermal vascularity (which is what makes it so attractive to competitors). However, vasodilation will obviously occur in ALL blood vessels - in fact, one of the primary medical uses of adenosine is to dilate the coronary arteries prior to certain cardiac tests, as I mentioned above; for example, a physical stress test. This would of course lead us to focus on the possibility that an OD on adenosine (or a dose that is in any way supraphysiological by a marked amount) will manifest in certain cardiac vessel anomalies, which of course could be serious to a degree, depending on any pre-existing cardiac conditions in the individual. Furthemore, vasodilation to any marked degree would have a palpable effect on blood pressure, with similar possible hazards. These are the two main aspects one would have to watch out for. Obviously, I don't believe for a second that any bodybuilder would take more of something in the hope that more works better; after all, who is more conservative and careful than us bodybuilders? So, let's all pretend for a second that taking high doses of adenosine was a absurdly theoretical possibility.

Thereby, to check the possible effects out, let's flip over a few of my trusty old notes here and find some adenosine clinical trials. I think the following will serve our purpose very elegantly. In fact, the following reactions were reported with intravenous Adenocard (adenosine) used in controlled U.S. clinical trials.

The placebo group had a less than 1% rate of all of these reactions.

Cardiovascular: Facial flushing (18%), headache (2%), sweating, palpitations, chest pain, hypotension (less than 1%).

Respiratory: Shortness of breath / dyspnea (12%), chest pressure (7%), hyperventilation, head pressure (less than 1%).

Central Nervous System: Lightheadedness (2%), dizziness, tingling in arms, numbness (1%), apprehension, blurred vision, burning sensation, heaviness in arms, neck and back pain (less than 1%).

Gastrointestinal: Nausea (3%), metallic taste, tightness in throat, pressure in groin (less than 1%).

In addition to the above, I would also like to take this a step further and hop out of our nice, controlled clinical setting and see what happens when adenosine is administered in actual cases, outside of the rigid confines imposed by lab tests. Such a setting is always a better way to gauge what can happen in the real world. In fact, the following illustrates my point above, where I remarked that if any side effects would be manifest, they would tend to be mostly cardiac and/or cardiovascular in nature.

Thus, in post-market clinical experience with Adenocard, cases of prolonged asystole, ventricular tachycardia, ventricular fibrillation, transient increase in blood pressure, bradycardia, hypotension, atrial fibrillation, and bronchospasm, in association with Adenocard use, have been reported.

OK, now someone will argue that all the above results have been elicited from Adenocard, which is given intravascularly, a route that is never used by bodybuilders (well the averagely sane ones at least). This is very true, and I only used the above scenario to illustrate what could possibly happen when the safety of AMP use would be taken to the limit and beyond. If we were to briefly check other possible routes of adenosine intake, we would see that the limited number of human studies involving oral AMP have not indicated any side effects. (However, some researchers have expressed concern that supraphysiological levels of adenosine may interfere with immune function.) In keeping with the above, doctors using AMP injections report that too-rapid intravenous administration or inadvertent administration of an intramuscular injection into a vein could cause life-threatening arrhythmias of the heart.

And I think that should just about cover it.

[homonunculus]

IM^,

MANY THANKS for that!!! I missed it originally.

Originally posted by IM^

Gastrointestinal: Nausea (3%), metallic taste, tightness in throat, pressure in groin (less than 1%).

I kinda question that last side though - "pressure in the groin,"

I'm imagining some guy with a hot candystriper administering his tests: "Yeah, that pressure.... its right there.... Yep. Right about there.... Feel that lump?!? Man o man, that hurts... Could ya maybe massage that out or something? Wow, thanks. That REALLY hurts!!!!" LMAO.

-R