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  • #16
    Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
    Thanks for the vids.

    Yes, it's possible the "popping" stretched some connective tissue out that set off a sequelae of neuromuscular (de)adaptations that landed you here.

    Those videos (the first was OK, actually) show that right scapulae winging pretty good. (I'd guess the PT's who diagnosed this had you do that?... That's the definitive test for winged scapulae, at least as far as I know.)

    One simple cure here - the idea is to train the serratus anterior - would be to finish your RP sets (do this after a static) or add in one or two extra sets of "scapular protraction" presses where you hold a bar, smith mbar (or use a machine) at nearly full extension (end of ROM for a chest pressing movement) and do mini-retraction / protraction pressing movement (as full of a ROM as possible while keeping the right scapula flat against your rib cage).

    This is the idea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKGwU7zzwVE

    [YOUTUBE]IKGwU7zzwVE[/YOUTUBE]

    You can also do what John Meadows calls pec minor dips, making sure to keep the scapula flat, as well.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IerK6jDwJN0

    [YOUTUBE]IerK6jDwJN0[/YOUTUBE]

    If you can do the push-ups or pec minor dips with someone to give you feedback (even tactile feedback by touching your scapula to direct it accordingly) to help you make the movements symmetrical, that would be great. If on a bench for the protraction presses, you can use the sensation of the bench pressing into your scapula (or not doing so if it's not winging) as feedback.

    -S

    Thank you Homon ( and knickerboxer ) , now I can properly guide myself on my rehab, on what to bring up with the next PT ( a more experience one this time) the other PT's I went to weren't exactly doing a good job on that part.

    The PT's actually just told me to do a lat spread, then ruled it as scapular winging (tho they didn't said I needed to train the serratus, just to stretch the pec minor and do more external rotation).


    Just food for thought here, i found this vid while doing some research
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mve_p...eature=mh_lolz

    at 11:15 you'll notice the PT presents the "bad way" to do rows, this is exactly how I do my rows, protact, then retract, then pull. So it might not have been the shoulder girdle manipulation after all, but heavy weight + bad form over time. Now that I think of think there are a lot of people that recomend doing rows this way...


    You think there's any merit to stretching the pec minor or doing scapular retractions to activate the medial and lower trap fibers ?


    Also, when you say to keep the scapula flat, you mean keeping it from flaring/winging ? ( I'll probably need the PT to walk me over on this one ).
    "If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time." - homonunculus

    "Nothing better than coming to IM and seeing a Wall of Text next to that big Tricep pic." - Lonnie123

    “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” - Homer

    The scale doesn't show a number. When he steps on it, it simply reads: Big Mother Fucker. - Skip

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 0001Delta View Post
      Thank you Homon ( and knickerboxer ) , now I can properly guide myself on my rehab, on what to bring up with the next PT ( a more experience one this time) the other PT's I went to weren't exactly doing a good job on that part.

      The PT's actually just told me to do a lat spread, then ruled it as scapular winging (tho they didn't said I needed to train the serratus, just to stretch the pec minor and do more external rotation).


      Just food for thought here, i found this vid while doing some research
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mve_p...eature=mh_lolz

      at 11:15 you'll notice the PT presents the "bad way" to do rows, this is exactly how I do my rows, protact, then retract, then pull. So it might not have been the shoulder girdle manipulation after all, but heavy weight + bad form over time. Now that I think of think there are a lot of people that recomend doing rows this way...


      You think there's any merit to stretching the pec minor or doing scapular retractions to activate the medial and lower trap fibers ?


      Also, when you say to keep the scapula flat, you mean keeping it from flaring/winging ? ( I'll probably need the PT to walk me over on this one ).
      That's a great video. He said to try and stay wide through the scapula. I always thought you were supposed pull your shoulder blades together and downward.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by 0001Delta View Post
        at 11:15 you'll notice the PT presents the "bad way" to do rows, this is exactly how I do my rows, protact, then retract, then pull. So it might not have been the shoulder girdle manipulation after all, but heavy weight + bad form over time. Now that I think of think there are a lot of people that recomend doing rows this way...
        You may find this helpful. There are quite a few ways to mess up a row, Eric Cressey present some good ideas and common mistakes in rowing here.
        [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4ooY1N05Ig[/YOUTUBE]

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by 0001Delta View Post
          Thank you Homon ( and knickerboxer ) , now I can properly guide myself on my rehab, on what to bring up with the next PT ( a more experience one this time) the other PT's I went to weren't exactly doing a good job on that part.

          The PT's actually just told me to do a lat spread, then ruled it as scapular winging (tho they didn't said I needed to train the serratus, just to stretch the pec minor and do more external rotation).


          Just food for thought here, i found this vid while doing some research
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mve_p...eature=mh_lolz
          Nice video!

          (You're welcome, BTW.)

          I of course defer to the PT's as far as what exercises to do. I've had a winged scapula before and took care of it, so I have some preferred methods.


          at 11:15 you'll notice the PT presents the "bad way" to do rows, this is exactly how I do my rows, protact, then retract, then pull. So it might not have been the shoulder girdle manipulation after all, but heavy weight + bad form over time. Now that I think of think there are a lot of people that recomend doing rows this way...
          Could have been.

          You think there's any merit to stretching the pec minor or doing scapular retractions to activate the medial and lower trap fibers ?
          If you can determine that there is a need there (and the PT's have), then yes, stretch the pec minor.

          Scapular retraction to "strengthen" the trap would be helpful, but the main thing here (I suspect) is re-educating he nervous system to keep the scapula tracking properly (unless you can ascertain that there's a mechanical issue in there - torn muscle fibers, connective tissue, or what have you). One of those PT's can see if there's atrophy in the middle / lower trap but again, i suspect if you're still able to train heavy, you're just doing so with a winged scapula.

          That "pump" you feel may be muscular weakness or perhaps ineffeciency (increased metabolic demand) b/c the involved (stabilizer) muscle(s) are operating at a lengthened or shortened (non-optimal) length.

          Also, when you say to keep the scapula flat, you mean keeping it from flaring/winging ? ( I'll probably need the PT to walk me over on this one ).
          Yes, "flat" would mean not winged. A vid of you doing some seated cable rows or something where you can see the scapular tracking when loaded would be interesting as well. (Not a biggie, as that PT can figure that out, but I'm just being selfishly curious. )

          -S
          The Book Has Arrived!
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          • #20
            Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
            Scapular retraction to "strengthen" the trap would be helpful, but the main thing here (I suspect) is re-educating he nervous system to keep the scapula tracking properly (unless you can ascertain that there's a mechanical issue in there - torn muscle fibers, connective tissue, or what have you). One of those PT's can see if there's atrophy in the middle / lower trap but again, i suspect if you're still able to train heavy, you're just doing so with a winged scapula.
            You do bring a valid point, I would not be able to train heavy (last back thickness exercise was one armed rows with 180 for 10 ) if there was any muscle damage. But I don't rule out connective tissue damage since it pops and cracks the hell out itself when I pull with a protracted shoulder (deads and tbars from the floor), but since there's no pain I think it's not that severe and could be reversed.

            I'll be asking about the medial and lower trap, I brought this up because I always had trouble feeling/bringing up those muscles as opposed to lats and upper traps, so I have a feeling that weakness could be part of the issue.


            Yes, "flat" would mean not winged. A vid of you doing some seated cable rows or something where you can see the scapular tracking when loaded would be interesting as well. (Not a biggie, as that PT can figure that out, but I'm just being selfishly curious. )

            -S
            Imma see if I can do this today, I had JM's reeves deadlift for today's back thickness, but I think it's best i refrain from anything that might stretch soft tissue, as is the case with this lift, so seated cable rows might be just a good replacement.

            (Might have to replace squats too since the bar isn't sitting comfortably on my right side and I'm getting that "pump" feeling.)
            "If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time." - homonunculus

            "Nothing better than coming to IM and seeing a Wall of Text next to that big Tricep pic." - Lonnie123

            “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” - Homer

            The scale doesn't show a number. When he steps on it, it simply reads: Big Mother Fucker. - Skip

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Knickerbocker24 View Post
              You may find this helpful. There are quite a few ways to mess up a row, Eric Cressey present some good ideas and common mistakes in rowing here.
              [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4ooY1N05Ig[/YOUTUBE]
              Imma check this out when I get home since it isn't showing on my ipad for some reason. Thanks for posting it.
              "If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time." - homonunculus

              "Nothing better than coming to IM and seeing a Wall of Text next to that big Tricep pic." - Lonnie123

              “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” - Homer

              The scale doesn't show a number. When he steps on it, it simply reads: Big Mother Fucker. - Skip

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                A vid of you doing some seated cable rows or something where you can see the scapular tracking when loaded would be interesting as well. (Not a biggie, as that PT can figure that out, but I'm just being selfishly curious. )

                -S
                This was PT oriented. The guy also made a shitty job of keeping the camera static, but I guess he knew what to film

                "Heavy set" ( actually light for me, but he wanted me to go light)

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d9X2...ature=youtu.be

                "Super Heavy set" (again, light)

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRI-b...ature=youtu.be


                Please don't mind my lack of rear-delts.
                "If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time." - homonunculus

                "Nothing better than coming to IM and seeing a Wall of Text next to that big Tricep pic." - Lonnie123

                “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” - Homer

                The scale doesn't show a number. When he steps on it, it simply reads: Big Mother Fucker. - Skip

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Knickerbocker24 View Post
                  You may find this helpful. There are quite a few ways to mess up a row, Eric Cressey present some good ideas and common mistakes in rowing here.
                  My PT pretty much echoed that video. Turns out I've been rowing wrong all these years.
                  "If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time." - homonunculus

                  "Nothing better than coming to IM and seeing a Wall of Text next to that big Tricep pic." - Lonnie123

                  “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” - Homer

                  The scale doesn't show a number. When he steps on it, it simply reads: Big Mother Fucker. - Skip

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    So... couple of things we found out is wrong:

                    Besides the scapula winging I seems have scoliosis, reason why my shoulders aren't alligned. ( gotta laugh, tumor + winged scapula + scoliosis + double jointed and I'm still here, I'm starting to think I'm immortal. )

                    And because of this, as I had guessed it, I shouldn't back squat anymore as it makes the scoliosis worse ( front squats are ok tho ). I wonder tho if deadlifts and shoulder presses with dbs are still ok to do but I gotta check ( Homon, you got any experience with this ?).

                    My left side is actually the stronger side, as it compensates for the right side and the winging. And these are the reason I dislocated my shoulder doing shoulder presses a year ago( poor stability on the right side. )

                    Good news is it can be worked on, both the winging and the scolio. Really good news is I'm tired of back squats anyway so I don't give a damn I can't do those anymore.
                    Last edited by 0001Delta; 01-25-2013, 04:51 PM.
                    "If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time." - homonunculus

                    "Nothing better than coming to IM and seeing a Wall of Text next to that big Tricep pic." - Lonnie123

                    “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” - Homer

                    The scale doesn't show a number. When he steps on it, it simply reads: Big Mother Fucker. - Skip

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Delta, don't feel bad. Lots of people don't row correctly including dozens of Division I athletes I've worked with. Many folks row with a momentum and movement flaws that allow you to handle significantly more weight, but create dysfunctional patterns. If you saw the Cressey video you may know this already, but a few things stood out. One, watch the head movement. Try to maintain neutral spine which includes head position. Think of it this way, wherever your torso points, your head should point that way too. So, if your torso is perpendicular to the ground as in standing or sitting upright, your head should remain upright. Don't allow your head to go into flexion and extension with each rep. A few sets of quadreped chin tucks may help ingrain this. Second, don't go into too much lumbar extension. A good cue for that you would have heard on Cressey's video is keep you ribcage down. Don't allow the ribcage to flare out...you can't go into lumbar extension with your ribcage down. Third, seek that 30-degree angle of the elbow...don't let it sit too close to your body or pin in to your lats. Fourth, pull through elbows and think of your hands simply as hooks...try not to think of pulling through your arms. A few sets of single arm rows with really light weight may help before going "heavy". Also, moving temporarily to a chest supported row may be beneficial. Finally consider doing a scap/posterior shoulder routine prior to any upper body training of something like cuban presses, OH BB shrug, lateral quadreped hand walking, scap pushups, scap pull downs or scap pullups.

                      One quick question I'd be curious to ask your PT about is if he thinks you have any signs of an AIC pattern. Your lack of pain makes me think maybe not, but I've heard of it incorrectly diagnosed as scoliosis in the past and seen athletes with shoulder and back pain and often one shoulder sitting slightly lower than the other. Is your shoulder mobility similar on both sides (internal rotation + external rotation with the scapula stabilized at 90-degrees of abduction)? It's OK to have individual components different from one side to the other, but the total motion should be similar. Also, is he doing any sort of message work with you?

                      Good luck and kudos on keeping up with this and asking questions. Keep us posted as you go.
                      Last edited by Knickerbocker24; 01-25-2013, 05:59 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Knickerbocker24 View Post
                        Delta, don't feel bad. Lots of people don't row correctly including dozens of Division I athletes I've worked with. If you saw the Cressey video you may know this already, but a few things stood out. One, watch the head movement. Try to maintain neutral spine which includes head position. Think of it this way, wherever your torso points, your head should point that way too. So, if your torso is perpendicular to the ground as in standing or sitting upright, your head should remain upright. Don't allow your head to go into flexion and extension with each rep. A few sets of quadreped chin tucks may help ingrain this. Second, don't go into too much lumbar extension. A good cue for that you would have heard on Cressey's video is keep you ribcage down. Don't allow the ribcage to flare out...you can't go into lumbar extension with your ribcage down. Third, seek that 30-degree angle of the elbow...don't let it sit too close to your body or pin in to your lats. Fourth, pull through elbows and think of your hands simply as hooks...try not to think of pulling through your arms. A few sets of single arm rows with really light weight may help before going "heavy". Also, moving temporarily to a chest supported row may be beneficial. Finally consider doing a scap/posterior shoulder routine prior to any upper body training of something like cuban presses, OH BB shrug, lateral quadreped hand walking, scap pushups, scap pull downs or scap pullups.
                        Thanks for the continued support man

                        I'll bring this up with my PT, he hasn't yet prescribed me my rehab (today was the first session, we mostly used it to diagnose the problem). Do you think any rotator cuff work along with the scap work before the upper body training can be beneficial ? ( I'm thinking external rotation to build up stability).

                        One quick question I'd be curious to ask your PT about is if he thinks you have any signs of an AIC pattern. Your lack of pain makes me think maybe not, but I've heard of it incorrectly diagnosed as scoliosis in the past and seen athletes with shoulder and back pain and often one shoulder sitting slightly lower than the other. Is your shoulder mobility similar on both sides (internal rotation + external rotation with the scapula stabilized at 90-degrees of abduction)? It's OK to have individual components different from one side to the other, but the total motion should be similar. Also, is he doing any sort of message work with you?
                        Both sides retain the same mobility. One thing tho, and I just remember this I've had anterior pelvic tilt in the past ( already delt with ), not sure this would be relevant, but perhaps it falls into the AIC pattern.
                        Yes he's gonna do ART and massage sessions, and I've been prescribed a rumble roller to use every morning.
                        "If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time." - homonunculus

                        "Nothing better than coming to IM and seeing a Wall of Text next to that big Tricep pic." - Lonnie123

                        “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” - Homer

                        The scale doesn't show a number. When he steps on it, it simply reads: Big Mother Fucker. - Skip

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 0001Delta View Post
                          Thanks for the continued support man

                          I'll bring this up with my PT, he hasn't yet prescribed me my rehab (today was the first session, we mostly used it to diagnose the problem). Do you think any rotator cuff work along with the scap work before the upper body training can be beneficial ? ( I'm thinking external rotation to build up stability).
                          NP, happy to help. Dealing with these little nagging injuries can be frustrating. In regards to cuff work absolutely. Take another look at my original post. A lot of lifters do way more humeral internal rotation work when compared to external. So, adding some volume to external rotation work can be beneficial long term to shoulder health. Also, the same can be true of pressing and pulling, both horizontal pressing (chest pressing) and horizontal pulling (rowing), and vertical pressing (shoulder pressing) and vertical pulling (pull downs/pull ups). Seek to balance an even amount of volume for all. This is especially evident in bodybuilding style training that trains off body parts versus movements.


                          Originally posted by 0001Delta View Post
                          Yes he's gonna do ART and massage sessions, and I've been prescribed a rumble roller to use every morning.
                          Great, that should help, especially if you fall into that poor posture group, message on the levator scapulae, upper traps, pecs, lats, and anterior delts often need work.
                          Last edited by Knickerbocker24; 01-26-2013, 09:01 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Great, that should help, the levator scapulae, upper traps, pecs, lats, and anterior delts often need work in populations that do a lot of upper body training and/or have poor scapular control. And some ART of the infraspinatus may help.[/QUOTE]

                            1. Inhibit the overactive muscles listed above
                            2. Improve your Thoracic Spine Mobility.
                            3. Learn to active all the stabilizers needed to maintain Scapulohumeral Rhythm. This rhythm should be maintained in all upperbody movements. The majority of people who train do not maintain this. Implementing a routine that focuses on shoulder stability will help tremendously.

                            I have fixed many shoulder issues.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ginseng View Post
                              Great, that should help, the levator scapulae, upper traps, pecs, lats, and anterior delts often need work in populations that do a lot of upper body training and/or have poor scapular control. And some ART of the infraspinatus may help.
                              1. Inhibit the overactive muscles listed above
                              2. Improve your Thoracic Spine Mobility.
                              3. Learn to active all the stabilizers needed to maintain Scapulohumeral Rhythm. This rhythm should be maintained in all upperbody movements. The majority of people who train do not maintain this. Implementing a routine that focuses on shoulder stability will help tremendously.

                              I have fixed many shoulder issues.[/QUOTE]

                              Thanks for posting man.

                              I'll focus on all of this, tho I have a problem with the Thoracic Mobily drills (there are too many ways and I'm not sure which one to use), and I dunno how it will affect my scoliosis.

                              I'm really trying hard as hell to engage my stabilizers on upper body movements. So far I can say I've been having some sucess because the "Pump" I feel on my scapula is a bit less intense and even tho I'm using lighter weights I can feel my right arm more stable.
                              "If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time." - homonunculus

                              "Nothing better than coming to IM and seeing a Wall of Text next to that big Tricep pic." - Lonnie123

                              “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” - Homer

                              The scale doesn't show a number. When he steps on it, it simply reads: Big Mother Fucker. - Skip

                              Comment

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