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  • Fatigue indicators and how to use them

    http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/...w-to-use-them/

    Fatigue is inevitable so long as we train hard, so there's not point in trying to avoid it completely. But, if we accumulate fatigue for too long, we end up performing poorly, adapting poorly (not getting as good as we could be), and getting hurt more often. So every now again we have to bring our fatigue down...
    #docswholift
    PGY-1 FM
    "No idea is above scrutiny and no people are beneath dignity." -Maajid Nawaz

  • #2
    Nexa,

    [Don't take this personally.... ]

    I don't see that this article defined "fatigue."

    (The way the term is used here is quite different that in the majority of the exercise science literature, where fatigue represents a (acute) momentary loss of the ability to produce force and/or velocity of a muscle, that's reversible by rest. That definition is found here, for instance: NHLBI Workshop summary. Respiratory muscle fatigue. Report of the Respiratory Muscle Fatigue Workshop Group. (1990). Am Rev Respir Dis, 142(2), 474-480. doi: 10.1164/ajrccm/142.2.474 It's the same definition used in the ACSM's Advanced Exercise Physiology text.)

    This article seems to be cover the phenomena of overreaching and overtraining.

    When I was unable to find a definition for what they were referring to when it comes to "fatigue." Best I can tell, they are referring to a decrement in performance, which is conceptually quite different than fatigue. Performance would be a measurement outcome from a defined test. (How fast you can run 400m would be a performance measure.) Fatigue refers to change in muscle output during a test. (How much does your speed decline when you run all out over 400m, a test which may not optimize performance time over that distance.) Fatigue may be (depending on the test parameters) one measure of performance, but the two are not synonymous.

    Anyway, the whole article revolves around an undefined term, unless I'm missing it... So, this is really bizarre to me as an exercise physiologist... LOL

    Also, this was written by two guys with PhD's and there is not a single scientific reference provided... That makes me sad... LOL

    -S
    The Book Has Arrived!
    The Book Has Arrived!

    Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


    www.TrueNutrition.com

    2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
    2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
    2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

    Comment


    • #3
      Scott
      Did you click on the link in the intro paragraph. In the corresponding article the author again describes (defines) fatigue saying ".... fatigue is the term used to describe the inhibition of maximal performance that comes about as a result of stressors imposed on the athlete." However this seems a little vague to me because he goes on to extrapolate the description to physiological markers associated with over reaching and over training (CNS fatigue, altered hormone function, etc).

      I think using the term(s) interchangeably is misleading (although I'm not sure intentional). But perhaps makes for better "read-ability" for some. I do think the group at Juggernaut tend to put out some really good information though for the most part. But in this case I do think it's important to give scientific reference, particularly when asserting definitions of terms pertaining to physiology or athletic performance...

      (I was wondering if you'd chime in here after I didn't see any research listed in the article(s) )

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      • #4
        either way....Nexa; I like how your always helping, or posting things that may be helpful. Says alot about your personality.

        Last edited by Colokrom; 01-02-2016, 05:48 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Michael Travis View Post
          Scott
          Did you click on the link in the intro paragraph. In the corresponding article the author again describes (defines) fatigue saying ".... fatigue is the term used to describe the inhibition of maximal performance that comes about as a result of stressors imposed on the athlete." However this seems a little vague to me because he goes on to extrapolate the description to physiological markers associated with over reaching and over training (CNS fatigue, altered hormone function, etc).

          I think using the term(s) interchangeably is misleading (although I'm not sure intentional). But perhaps makes for better "read-ability" for some. I do think the group at Juggernaut tend to put out some really good information though for the most part. But in this case I do think it's important to give scientific reference, particularly when asserting definitions of terms pertaining to physiology or athletic performance...

          (I was wondering if you'd chime in here after I didn't see any research listed in the article(s) )
          Ah - there it is! (No, I didn't see that article...)

          Still, no citation for that definition of fatigue ... <sigh>

          That simply (as you know) is not how "fatigue" is operationalized and measured in exercise or sport science.

          In the "Fatigue Explained" article (http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/...gue-explained/), he's coming up with his own term here:

          "Training-induced fatigue has 3 primary proximate causes: substrate depletion, neuroendocrine alterations, and microtrauma. They each play a role in adding to fatigue, and must of course each be addressed if fatigue reduction is a goal."

          Best I can figure he's created the term "training-induced fatigue" to mean a loss of performance not fatigue related (where fatigue is the generally accepted notion of an acute decline of performance the is rapidly restored at rest)...

          <SIGH> LOL

          So, this goes back into the realm of overreaching, overstraining, etc...

          Where it the accountability with statements like this (valid or not)?... "Generally, the literature shows that the primary cause of training-induced fatigue is the total volume of a training program, and not nearly as much its intensity."

          -S
          The Book Has Arrived!
          The Book Has Arrived!

          Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


          www.TrueNutrition.com

          2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
          2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
          2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

          Comment


          • #6
            You're such a nerd.
            Ph.D., Theoretical Physics '16
            kind of a douche

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sammich View Post
              You're such a nerd.
              If wasn't certain Homon could hulk smash his way out, I'd say we should shove him in a locker or something.
              "If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time." - homonunculus

              "Nothing better than coming to IM and seeing a Wall of Text next to that big Tricep pic." - Lonnie123

              “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” - Homer

              The scale doesn't show a number. When he steps on it, it simply reads: Big Mother Fucker. - Skip

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              • #8
                This is some great info . Thanks


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                  Ah - there it is! (No, I didn't see that article...)

                  Still, no citation for that definition of fatigue ... <sigh>

                  That simply (as you know) is not how "fatigue" is operationalized and measured in exercise or sport science.

                  In the "Fatigue Explained" article (http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/...gue-explained/), he's coming up with his own term here:

                  "Training-induced fatigue has 3 primary proximate causes: substrate depletion, neuroendocrine alterations, and microtrauma. They each play a role in adding to fatigue, and must of course each be addressed if fatigue reduction is a goal."

                  Best I can figure he's created the term "training-induced fatigue" to mean a loss of performance not fatigue related (where fatigue is the generally accepted notion of an acute decline of performance the is rapidly restored at rest)...

                  <SIGH> LOL

                  So, this goes back into the realm of overreaching, overstraining, etc...

                  Where it the accountability with statements like this (valid or not)?... "Generally, the literature shows that the primary cause of training-induced fatigue is the total volume of a training program, and not nearly as much its intensity."

                  -S
                  I agree with you completely. I am not sure I've ever heard mention of a "training-induced fatigue" anywhere. Like you said it more closely matches over reaching, in that the symptoms of this "fatigue" are not really acute at all, and they've not shown anything related to acute performance decrements regarding this type of fatigue. Perhaps they are trying to coin a new term.

                  It's disappointing in that they do not cite any literature at all, and use pretty blanketed statements as pure fact, without any insight into the "literature" which they claim shows the primary causes of "fatigue-induced training". As far as I know, (and of course you are MUCH more well versed than me), the literature doesn't show ANYTHING about "fatigue-induced training", because heretofore, there has been no mention of it in the literature.

                  Anyway, I feel their heart is in the right place as the folks at Juggernaut are quite informative, trying to provide data for people related to training and some things to look for over the course of a training program which may adversely impact performance, but coming from someone who is a PhD, I'd hoped for a little more backing from actual science and literature in the field especially since the lead (or first listed) author is still an active professor in the field....

                  Mike

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                    [Don't take this personally.... ]

                    -S
                    Ok ok, before I proceed...I'm really curious as to why I would take your comments personally?
                    #docswholift
                    PGY-1 FM
                    "No idea is above scrutiny and no people are beneath dignity." -Maajid Nawaz

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nexa View Post
                      Ok ok, before I proceed...I'm really curious as to why I would take your comments personally?
                      LOL!!!

                      Only because you posted the article that I was criticizing, I thought if you were highly enamored with it, there might be some small possibility that you'd think I was criticizing you indirectly.

                      In other words... I didn't want you to get "all butthurt and shit" (I literally snorted when I typed that) because I didn't like your article...

                      OK, please proceed.

                      -S
                      The Book Has Arrived!
                      The Book Has Arrived!

                      Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                      www.TrueNutrition.com

                      2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                      2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                      2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Why can't you just let the layperson...lay? NERD!
                        Fatigue definition... I'm tired/I 'm fuckin' beat! I can't perform at optimal levels.
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX8jOnRo34k
                        "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." -William G. McAdoo

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                          LOL!!!

                          Only because you posted the article that I was criticizing, I thought if you were highly enamored with it, there might be some small possibility that you'd think I was criticizing you indirectly.

                          In other words... I didn't want you to get "all butthurt and shit" (I literally snorted when I typed that) because I didn't like your article...

                          OK, please proceed.

                          -S

                          I appreciate your concern, but it wasn't necessary. I didn't write the article.

                          At the very least, it's generating some discussion.
                          #docswholift
                          PGY-1 FM
                          "No idea is above scrutiny and no people are beneath dignity." -Maajid Nawaz

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I enjoy the discussion . I think the intent of the article is accurate and on the right track as far as being written in a helpful manner.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MaxNat View Post
                              Why can't you just let the layperson...lay? NERD!
                              Fatigue definition... I'm tired/I 'm fuckin' beat! I can't perform at optimal levels.
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX8jOnRo34k
                              Actually, your (current) signature line points to the answer to your question (rhetorical as it may be):

                              "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." -William G. McAdoo

                              -S
                              The Book Has Arrived!
                              The Book Has Arrived!

                              Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                              www.TrueNutrition.com

                              2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                              2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                              2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                              Comment

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