I think Louie Simmons was on to something with heavy goodmornings

[Yev33]

This thread may sound like an obvious statement to some of you guys, but it was a real revelation for me. This training cycle I started including goodmornings as my heavy compound hamstring movement. I figured I'd be able to hit 315 for 4-6 reps, man was I wrong. Im starting with 205, and it feels like this movement is exposing my weakness in the posterior chain. I decided to throw them in to help with my squats, and it seems like it's working. I feel stronger coming out of the hole, I'm curious what my squats will look like once I can work up to 275 on GM's. I was wondering what kind of experience others have had with goodmornings and how well they carried over into your other lifts.

[Ransom]

How much do you squat? I'm interested to know the difference in weight between the lifts for you.

[Adam2433]

I wouldn't expect a huge carry over in strength but I think it will definitely help you arch hard and stay tight in the hole as you have already noticed.

Be careful piling on weight too fast. It can become an ego exercise quickly much like shrugs. And not only do you lose all benefit of the movement easily but it's more dangerous than getting egotistical with shrugs.

[Andrew_s]

Couple of GM questions to ask in here if I may. What are the general thoughts on lighter, more explosive reps? Say, starting out with 135, going to near parallel, and driving the hips forward to work the lower back and to help with carry over to squats? Does anybody see benefit to this, or should the tempo always be more controlled? I've done weight up to 275, but depending on many factors it seems to work different areas harder than others...if the above isn't wise, in your opinion what would be a good way to get some solid lower back work in and some carry over to squats (hamstrings, core, etc)?

[Yev33]

I squat more of an Olymic style, shoulder width stance and till my hamstrings touch my calves. At the end of last year I got 335 for 2 (bw 195lbs), I was also doing stiff leg deadlifts and got up to 365 for 6. Last cycle I used deadlifts and front squats, and went up to 435 for 4 on deads and 290 for 4 front squats. This training cycle my first workout I got 315 for 4 and 335 for a single on squats. Which I was pretty happy with since I am starting pretty much where I left off after not squatting for 12 weeks. I do my good mornings to parallel, I have seen people do them at about 45 degrees and knock out sets with 315 no problem, Im pretty sure I can get 315 with that kind of ROM but I feel like I am getting more out of them going to parallel. At the end of this cycle I am hoping to hit 365 for 4 on squats.

[FightingScott]

Before I hurt my back I did Chain-Suspended Malcolm X Good-Mornings (By any means necessary). Set bar to bellybutton height and go. When they went up my Deadlift went up. I think they've got better carry-over than Glute-Ham Raises, Back Extensions, or Above-Knee Rack Pulls.

[MPC5000WATTS]

I would agree it helped my dead more than squat. When gm, stiff legs and zerchers up, deads are up and we're going for records. Use the warmup sets to really explode up but slow and controlled down. If you ever allowed your back to stretch down fast on gms or reverse hypers you should know the pinching feeling in your lower erectors/back, not a good feeling; consider yourself lucky and don't do it again. Control the eccentric and prevent injuries! Point is at the end of the day someone who uses gm's and deads looks more powerful bc they are more powerful.

[LiquidMercury]

Can't say I've had a huge carryover to my squat. I actually can GM more than I can squat (475 GM for triple squat is only 475 for single). It's allowed me to "save" a lift though and I definitely never fall forward with the squat.

[MPC5000WATTS]

Can't say I've had a huge carryover to my squat. I actually can GM more than I can squat (475 GM for triple squat is only 475 for single). It's allowed me to "save" a lift though and I definitely never fall forward with the squat.

what are you deading cause thats a hell of a number for gms if your doing them down to parallel. If that is the case you must need more leg strength to up the squat. So far my max gm is 335*3 down to parallel, squat 535 and dead 606. These are my last meets numbers, definitely stronger now tht I made gms a mainstay!

[Yev33]

475 lb good morning is damn heavy

[Yev33]

So ive been hitting the good mornings heavy, went from 205 for 4 to 225 for 5, full ROM parallel. Had my squat workout tonight and got 335 for 4, at the start of the training cycle I was doing 315 for 4 and got 335 for a single. I cannot tell you guys how happy I am with this, I have been stuck on 315 for the last year and I was going nuts, bench went up, deadlift went up, squat would not budge.

[LandryP]

Rack Good Mornings against bands, or Chain-suspended are boss.

Most other variations are also boss.

Remember to use it as a muscle builder and not a movement. I think a 5 x 5 scheme is perfect for GMs.

[Carlito Gambino]

I remember one of the old time lifters (Pat Casey maybe?) using rounded back good mornings, fuck almighty did those look painful on the lower back. How he never got a herniated disc doing this is beyond me.

Anyhow, GMs are good, but I distinctly recall Wendler preferring to use lighter weight and going through the full ROM than using heavier and not doing them right (he touched on them in 5/3/1, said he could do them with 400+lbs but got more out of them with 200 something), and I agree with that. It's a risky exercise, but can be extremely valuable when done right.

[sanddmann]

thanx for posting this, ive just started squating, im still in the 400s, and when i go supper low, my lower back gets super tight, and end my set prematurely, i think its my form, however, i could be lacking the proper lower back strength for that much weight, when im going that deep, im talking 10inches or less from the floor to my butt,
is that too low? im just trying to hit some different muscles, makes my quads scream at me the next day? is it the form? or the lack of lower back developement? if the latter is the case, i will most definitely add in some heavy good mornings like you have done.

[Yev33]

thanx for posting this, ive just started squating, im still in the 400s, and when i go supper low, my lower back gets super tight, and end my set prematurely, i think its my form, however, i could be lacking the proper lower back strength for that much weight, when im going that deep, im talking 10inches or less from the floor to my butt,
is that too low? im just trying to hit some different muscles, makes my quads scream at me the next day? is it the form? or the lack of lower back developement? if the latter is the case, i will most definitely add in some heavy good mornings like you have done.

When I squat I don't think about depth, I just squat down till my hamstrings and calves touch. If you are using a shoulder width stance and using that as a guideline I don't think it's possible to go too low.

Your lower back getting tight could be due to a weakness in the lower back but most likely it's your form and possible flexability issues. Can you get into a full squat position with a shoulder width stance heels flat on the ground with no weight on your back, not even the bar? If you can't then you are using the weight on your back to counterbalance yourself from falling backwards at which point it's impossible to have proper form without EXCESSIVE forward lean. I say excessive because some forward lean is natural and how much depends on your individual structure.

Flexibility issues aside, one of the things that has really improved my squat form is learning how to front squat. It was a bitch at first and I had to do it with plates under my heels, but after a while I was able to do them flat footed. The great thing about front squatting is it's almost impossible to perform them without being able to stay upright, once you begin to tilt forward too much you will simply end up dumping the bar in front you.

So I guess what I am saying is, good mornings will definetly strengthen your lower back and hamstrings but first and foremost you have to get your form down.
The thing that I have expirienced is the stability that I have coming out of the hole now, my low back was a weak link and that was stalling out my squat. I figured that heavy deadlifts, rack pulls, and rdl's would be just fine and take care of everything and any possible weak links in my low back and hamstrings but I was wrong. I guess it would be helpful to post up what my whole workouts looked like as far as other movements that I was using.

This my lower body template that I am using for my training cycles.

Workout A
1.Heavy Compound hamstrings/lower back lift (deadlifts, good mornings,rackpulls,etc.)
2. Quads ( hack squats, leg press, machine squat)
3. Calves
4. weighted ab movement or isolation low back ( hyperextentions)
5. bodyweight ab movement

Workout B
1. Heavy Compound squat movement ( squats, front squats ,box squats)
2. unilateral movement ( lunges, single leg squats, split squats etc.)
3. hamstring isolation movement ( ham curls, glute ham raises etc.)
4. calves
5. abs

right now I am doing
Workout A
1. Good mornings
2. Hack squats
3. Single leg calf raises
4. Weighted crunches
5. leg raises
Workout B
1. Squats
2. Single leg squats ( back foot elevated)
3. seated ham. curls
4. toe presses
5. ab wheel roll outs