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Even more stuff about muscle growth you likely didn't know...

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  • Even more stuff about muscle growth you likely didn't know...

    IM'ers,


    Like having your preconceived notions tested?... Then you're REALLY gonna want to listen to this one..

    http://www.chrisdufey.com/36-muscle-...ott-stevenson/

    ------------------

    Muscle growth... It seems there is still plenty to learn...

    http://www.elitefts.com/education/tr...imple-science/

    -S
    The Book Has Arrived!
    The Book Has Arrived!

    Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


    www.TrueNutrition.com

    2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
    2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
    2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

  • #2
    Bookmarked to read later and watch later... I have to get a little work done today lol
    Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

    Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

    2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
    2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
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    • #3
      Originally posted by mentalflex View Post
      Bookmarked to read later and watch later... I have to get a little work done today lol

      Work? What's that?






      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      "Only God can Judge me." -Tupac

      My Journal- http://www.intensemuscle.com/38062-eye-tiger.html

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      • #4
        Thanks for posting Scott. A couple of questions:

        1. Are you going to discuss the studies by Bamman and Petrella in your follow-up article?

        2. If so, are you going to discuss what the non-responders in the Bamman/Petrella group (or the Cameron group) could have done to experience some muscle growth?

        The researchers suggested maybe more rest (the regimen was 3x/week) but the failure of the nonresponders to elicit acute significant increases in factors such as MGF seem to rule out lack of rest being the culprit -- the machinery to increase muscle never seems to have gotten turned on as opposed to it having gotten turned on but not enough recovery was allowed.

        In the podcast, you mentioned just sticking with it, that you never saw a trainee who couldn't put on at least some muscle if they trained long enough. But is there anything else?

        Creatine has been shown to increase satellite cells. Do you think that would hold true for a nonresponder?

        Loaded stretching and/or eccentric exercise for increased MGF? Jacob Wilson claims to have had some success integrating stretches in between sets.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by pantherhare View Post
          Thanks for posting Scott. A couple of questions:

          1. Are you going to discuss the studies by Bamman and Petrella in your follow-up article?

          2. If so, are you going to discuss what the non-responders in the Bamman/Petrella group (or the Cameron group) could have done to experience some muscle growth?

          The researchers suggested maybe more rest (the regimen was 3x/week) but the failure of the nonresponders to elicit acute significant increases in factors such as MGF seem to rule out lack of rest being the culprit -- the machinery to increase muscle never seems to have gotten turned on as opposed to it having gotten turned on but not enough recovery was allowed.

          In the podcast, you mentioned just sticking with it, that you never saw a trainee who couldn't put on at least some muscle if they trained long enough. But is there anything else?

          Creatine has been shown to increase satellite cells. Do you think that would hold true for a nonresponder?

          Loaded stretching and/or eccentric exercise for increased MGF? Jacob Wilson claims to have had some success integrating stretches in between sets.
          AWESOME questions.

          Yes, I get into those studies and address the idea of what can we do specifically with non-responders.

          The difficulty there is that this would need to be a two step process (at least):

          1.) Isolate the non-responders (and get enough of them to have statistical power)

          2.) Train them using various techniques.

          You're thought about creatine (or another supplement or technique) turning on satellite cell activity is one thing I mention, too. The issue again in studies demonstrating those effects is that this is for the average (responsive) trainee (who likely is getting good satellite cell activation in he first place).

          As you say, the trick is finding what step (or steps) seem to be limiting the growth adaptation.

          This notion is one reason why variety of stimuli (and just keeping on over the years, trying different things) makes sense. By trying different approaches along the spectrum from very heavy loading to high reps sets to blood flow restriction to high volume / low frequency vs. low volume high frequency, one would essentially be performing repeated case studies on him / herself.

          That very load load BFR training can produce growth and the same holds for heavy loads (e.g, in a DC training regime), not to mention the fact that animal models of hypertrophy where the overload persists for hours on end, suggests there are multiple forms that hypertrophic stimuli can take on.

          (Hopefully, the lesson from recognizing that there are indeed non-responders is that not everyone is the same, and that, in recognizing this, there is a possibility that not all "non-responders" are the same...)

          -S
          The Book Has Arrived!
          The Book Has Arrived!

          Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


          www.TrueNutrition.com

          2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
          2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
          2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

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          • #6
            I haven't listened to the Podcast, but, IYO are body types a major factor in non responders like a Ecto or a skinny fat guy?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by -AJA14- View Post
              I haven't listened to the Podcast, but, IYO are body types a major factor in non responders like a Ecto or a skinny fat guy?

              I think there is something to say for one's "constitutive" body type, i.e., what amount of muscle mass and level of body fat one typically carries without a training stimulus. But I do think responsiveness (adaptive capability) is highly variable there.

              Evan Centopani was a very chubby kid and Paul Dillett and Flex Wheeler were pretty skinny as youngsters / teens.

              More important to me is evaluating a person's history with food, past training experiences, athletic history, psychological / person relationship with food, etc. in the context of goals.

              In one of Phillips studies (That I refer to in the paper), they found no relationship between BF%, lean mass, Fiber type, etc. and gain in Lean mass: "We used correlation analysis to examine the relationship between key factors that have been speculated to be
              important for human muscle growth (e.g. body composition, fibertype,
              metabolic and signaling molecule status)." 1. Phillips BE, Williams JP, Gustafsson T, Bouchard C, Rankinen T, Knudsen S, Smith K, Timmons JA, and Atherton PJ. Molecular networks of human muscle adaptation to exercise and age. PLoS genetics 9: e1003389, 2013.

              -S
              The Book Has Arrived!
              The Book Has Arrived!

              Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


              www.TrueNutrition.com

              2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
              2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
              2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by homonunculus View Post

                (Hopefully, the lesson from recognizing that there are indeed non-responders is that not everyone is the same, and that, in recognizing this, there is a possibility that not all "non-responders" are the same...)

                -S
                The sample size was pretty small, but the nonresponders in the Bamman-Petrella study tended to skew either elderly and/or female. Do you think that offers any clue as to what might be going on and what might work to address it? In your own experience training clients, have you ever had a nonresponder, that is someone that failed to put on any muscle in response to most standard resistance training protocol? I understand that you've never seen anyone that failed to put on muscle given enough time, I'm wondering if there was some common denominator among those that were nonresponders, at least initially. Age or gender, or maybe something as tenuous and subjective as mind muscle control?

                Definitely looking forward to your next article. It's a pretty daunting thought that you might have to cycle through every training methodology for yourself let alone your clients.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by pantherhare View Post
                  The sample size was pretty small, but the nonresponders in the Bamman-Petrella study tended to skew either elderly and/or female. Do you think that offers any clue as to what might be going on and what might work to address it? In your own experience training clients, have you ever had a nonresponder, that is someone that failed to put on any muscle in response to most standard resistance training protocol? I understand that you've never seen anyone that failed to put on muscle given enough time, I'm wondering if there was some common denominator among those that were nonresponders, at least initially. Age or gender, or maybe something as tenuous and subjective as mind muscle control?

                  Definitely looking forward to your next article. It's a pretty daunting thought that you might have to cycle through every training methodology for yourself let alone your clients.
                  Those same authors have another study showing that satellite cell activity explains why older individuals might not gain muscle size as well:

                  1. Petrella JK, Kim JS, Cross JM, Kosek DJ, and Bamman MM. Efficacy of myonuclear addition may explain differential myofiber growth among resistance-trained young and older men and women. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 291: E937-946, 2006.

                  The data on women that I'm aware of suggest that relative hypertrophy tends to be the same, but not always. Women may tend to smaller fibers (e.g., http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683), which would skew data. I don't know that you can say from the Bamman et al. study that the data were skewed such that women were less responsive (small #'s as you say), but its sociological issues can play a role here as far as training efforts.

                  I would tend to say that the simple things like training efforts (thinking at the start of training now, not in reaching very high levels of muscle mass) would be my best guess. There are those that are very meticulous in terms of diet, etc. and simply lack the "wild card" mentality that can be needed in the gym to just throw caution to the wind and kick some major ass.

                  OTOH, my dissertation work use e-stim to evoke muscle adaptations and I actually looked at the data afterwards to see if anything about he training stimulus played a role. (The rate of progression was not auto regulated here, so there is one limitation. The loading was simply progressed week by week in the same fashion for everyone). There wasn't any significant correlations between fatigue index, ratio of concentric / eccentric loading, etc., from what I can recall, but the range of % increase in CSA was ~3% to about ~20% (off the top of my head - this was 15yr ago).

                  I think that mind-muscle control does seem to make a difference, TBH, as some point in time. At one end of the spectrum, consider powerlifters who are just trying to move weight who might not be extraordinarily large. (Granted training styles are quite different.) Similarly, ever see guys training with really sloppy form (not controlled momentum - but rather uncontrolled contractions just to move weight) that carry very little muscle mass. There is a possible interrelationship here (those guys might be willing to try harder b/c they're not making gains), but I do suspect something is there in terms of making a "mind muscle connection) be it with conventional ideas of what or "good form" or the ability to move big weights ballistically and ensure tension on the target muscle.

                  One thing I REPEATEDLY notice (and saw / see this in the way Dave Henry trains... Lee priest and John Meadows are two others) is that very large competitors very often have form that my eye tells me they're connecting well with the targeted muscle. Even in Ronnie Coleman, as ballistic as he could be, I could see he was hitting the muscle he was intending to train.

                  -S
                  The Book Has Arrived!
                  The Book Has Arrived!

                  Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                  www.TrueNutrition.com

                  2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                  2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                  2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful response. Everything you said makes sense. That e-stim experience is definitely interesting and seems to favor ruling out effort and/or MMC as the culprit. But 3% is not nothing and like you said, the results may have been even better if the rest times and progressions were individualized.

                    I agree with your observations on the elite bodybuilders and your hypothesis that it might matter more later on down the line, but perhaps not so much in the beginning, as your e-stim studies illustrate.

                    Perhaps it's not so much the difference in "quality" or even the type of stimulus (high intensity/low volume vs. low intensity/high volume vs. blood occlusion, etc.) but rather perhaps that conventional training is simply not "damaging" enough to stimulate an adaptation in nonresponders. Hence heavy eccentrics and loaded stretching? But then that just "feels" wrong, if nonresponders tend to be elderly -- you might wind up simply hurting them with more "damaging" training.

                    Bah, I'll just wait for you to figure it out, which I'm sure will be in the near future.

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