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  • Since some of you are pretty smart...

    I have come to a point in a situation I have been dealing with where I have run out of ideas....

    September of 2013 I had ACL surgery and a month or so after my back broke out like crazy. AAS related no doubt but the massive amounts of painkillers probably did not help. So around February I went to a dermatologist and decided to try out accutane. I was told that if I had any bad side effects that I should be relieved of them after discontinuing the accutane. Well, they did not. I took one dose of 50mg and began feeling panicky, distorted but not blurry vision(like being drunk with a runners high), fatigue, weakness, nausea and dizziness. After calling the dermatologist they told me to stop taking it. Even after a few days these side effects never went away.

    10 months later I still am not much better. My head feels fuzzy, lack of concentration, mild fatigue, and my vision always feels like I've had a few beers. Eyes are Sensitive to light changes. No depression but major anxiety over this whole situation. This is all constant. Never goes away but there are times I feel more comfortable.

    Blood work before and after the one dose were flawless.
    2 lumbar punctures determined I did not have excess spinal fluid
    Contrast and non contrast MRI of head showed nothing.
    One eye doctor found nothing wrong with my eyes.
    A second eye doctor said they were the healthiest eyes they've seen in a while. Only thing I needed was glasses for a very molds astigmatism which didn't help my symptoms. Actually felt worse.
    Neuroigist says I'm perfectly fine. Thinks it's all migraines but that's nonsense.

    No doctor (eye doctors and neurologist) have a clue what's wrong with me or where to look. There doesn't seem to be many triggers that make it worse.

    At time taking the accutane I was crusing at 200mg of test a week.

    In the 10 months I've had a few insane migraines but it's rare.

    4 months prior to taking the one dose of accutane I had used dbol. I started it again a week or so ago and it made my symptoms worse so I stopped it. But I was fine using winny. In this 10 months it's the only thing that had triggered it to be worse that I know of. There has to be some kind of connection between the two but I don't know.

    So since there's some really smart people on here I thought you guys might have some theories because I'm fresh out of them. I fear that there is permanent damage I will live with the rest of my life and that scares the absolute fuck out of me.

    One theory I'm working on is I have been taking valerian root for sleep in pretty high amounts for years and found out that it can be toxic to the liver. Valerian also inhibits an enzyme in the liver that breakdown the accutane. I am currently weaning off the valerian because you can become dependent on it.

    I constantly feel hungover is another way to describe the feeling.

    True Nutrition Discount: SRC745
    *2006 USAPL Washington State Powerlifting Championships- 1st, 14-16 age-148lb class -2nd Men's Open 148lb class
    •2x WABDL Worlds Runner Up - Teens 16-17 165lb
    *Former WABDL Teen 16-17 165lb World Record Bench Holder (Washington state record) of 396.6lbs

  • #2
    The interaction of the valerian with the isotretinoin (I don't know about that personally - haven't dug into it) may have may have strongly amplified the dose.

    I would follow up on some of the mechanisms of action lister here in the wikipedia entry, especially the once about causing cell death:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotret...nism_of_action

    Sorry to hear about this. That doctor who prescribed this to you should be referring you out like crazy. (Hopefully that's happened.)

    -S
    The Book Has Arrived!
    The Book Has Arrived!

    Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


    www.TrueNutrition.com

    2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
    2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
    2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

    Comment


    • #3
      Well it either amplified it or made it sit there for a long period of time slowly absorbing. Either way I'm cutting out the valerian but I have to do it slowly because valerian has some dependency. Especially since Ive been taking 3-4 of them every night for a few years.

      My chiropractor who is one of the smartest guys Ive ever met has me taking 2-3 grams of taurine and 5000iu of vitamin d a few times a day. He thinks this may flush the isotretinoin out of the liver if it is locked up in there somehow. It's worth a shot.

      I'm also tapering down my caffeine intake. It's been rough because it's helped the fatigue that I deal with on occasion but that could be apart of the problem.

      Still open to any ideas anyone may have.

      And no the dermatologist basically told me "sorry, nothing I can do". So my family doctor referred me to a neurologist who did the mri's and lumbar punctures and blood work. He's convinced its migraines without headaches but Im certain that's not it. He wants to out me on a migraine medication with a whole bunch of ridiculous side effects like my fingers losing feeling and decreased cognitive function. Yeah right. Put me on another fucked up drug.


      Good news is I don't have acne anymore. Besides a spot here or there.

      True Nutrition Discount: SRC745
      *2006 USAPL Washington State Powerlifting Championships- 1st, 14-16 age-148lb class -2nd Men's Open 148lb class
      •2x WABDL Worlds Runner Up - Teens 16-17 165lb
      *Former WABDL Teen 16-17 165lb World Record Bench Holder (Washington state record) of 396.6lbs

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, as long as your skin looks good...

        What do your liver function tests show?...

        -S
        The Book Has Arrived!
        The Book Has Arrived!

        Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


        www.TrueNutrition.com

        2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
        2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
        2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

        Comment


        • #5
          Metabolic panel all normal. BUN was a little high but I think that can be attributed to the high protein intake. 27mg/dl normal being 7-23.

          Lymphs was low at 14. Normal being 20-50. Lymph nodes in back of my neck have always been a little large. Chiropractor says something about it every visit. My doctor doesn't seem concerned. I'm rarely sick.

          Cholesterol 123 out of 80-200

          Triglycerides 114 out of 16-200

          One thing I don't think I mentioned was I was following the anabolic diet at the time. High fat high protein with carb cycling twice a week. Accutane absorbs much better with high fat meals. Not sure if the amount of fat in the meal makes a difference but I mostly ate lots of steak with extra olive oil. Maybe 45-50g of fat per meal. Doctor doesn't think that would have caused hyper-absorption but then again they don't know anything. So it's a theory.

          In almost all overdose cases people made a full recovery once the drug was discontinued. Which makes me think that hyper-absorption or overdose isn't the case.

          True Nutrition Discount: SRC745
          *2006 USAPL Washington State Powerlifting Championships- 1st, 14-16 age-148lb class -2nd Men's Open 148lb class
          •2x WABDL Worlds Runner Up - Teens 16-17 165lb
          *Former WABDL Teen 16-17 165lb World Record Bench Holder (Washington state record) of 396.6lbs

          Comment


          • #6
            Why does your Chiro think the Accutane is 'locked up' in the liver?...

            (Do you know what is he expecting the Vit D to do, exactly?...)

            -S
            The Book Has Arrived!
            The Book Has Arrived!

            Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


            www.TrueNutrition.com

            2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
            2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
            2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

            Comment


            • #7
              A theory is that since the valerian inhibited the cytochrome p450 enzyme that breaks down accutane in the liver that it's basically been sitting there if it never passed without absorbing.

              I have an appointment with him Monday. He just called me the other day and told me to start taking that stuff. I'll get more info when I see him. I trust the guy far beyond chiropractic work.

              I am feeling better than I was last week which is a relief. No migraine, better vision, and more mental clarity. I've cut down the valerian from 4 tabs at night to 1 and after I finish the bottle I'll stop taking it. Maybe there is something to that.

              True Nutrition Discount: SRC745
              *2006 USAPL Washington State Powerlifting Championships- 1st, 14-16 age-148lb class -2nd Men's Open 148lb class
              •2x WABDL Worlds Runner Up - Teens 16-17 165lb
              *Former WABDL Teen 16-17 165lb World Record Bench Holder (Washington state record) of 396.6lbs

              Comment


              • #8
                Update:

                When I cut the valerian down from 4 to 1 that was a bad idea. Similar to dropping a normal anti anxiety med dramatically and experiencing withdrawal. So I went back to 3 for a while, then to two. Honestly, I don't think it's making a difference at all.

                Right now, I just feel weird. Different than I usually feel from this thing. It's all gotten a little worse since being really sick for 2-3 weeks. One of the theories brought up a while back from my Chiropractor is a vestibular issue. And that would make some sense now because people often get vestibular problems after a nasty flu or high fever. So since my symptoms have gotten worse since being really sick, it's now my theory I'm working on. Made an appointment t with an Ear Nose and Throat doctor but they can't get me in until April 13th.

                I will cut and paste the symptoms of a vestibular issue here that match how I feel all the time.

                VERTIGO AND DIZZINESS

                Spinning or whirling sensation; an illusion of movement of self or the world (vertigo)
                Lightheaded, floating, or rocking sensation (dizziness)
                Sensation of being heavily weighted or pulled in one direction

                - in this section I only get the lightheadedness which I always assumed was exhaustion from training. I suspect I don't get some of these other issues because of my trainjng and cardio and having outstanding balance from lifting, sports and snowboarding and skiing my whole life but that's a theory.

                VISION

                Trouble focusing or tracking objects with the eyes; objects or words on a page seem to jump, bounce, float, or blur or may appear doubled
                Discomfort from busy visual environments such as traffic, crowds, stores, and patterns
                Sensitivity to light, glare, and moving or flickering lights; fluorescent lights may be especially troublesome
                Sensitivity to certain types of computer monitors and digital televisions
                Tendency to focus on nearby objects; increased discomfort when focusing at a distance
                Increased night blindness; difficulty walking in the dark

                - I get it all from the vision section. Only place I've ever found all the symptoms fit 100% in association with vision. Enough said, right? But wait, there's more!!!! (Billy Mays)

                HEARING CHANGES

                Hearing loss; distorted or fluctuating hearing
                Tinnitus (ringing, roaring, buzzing, whooshing, or other noises in the ear)
                Sensitivity to loud noises or environments
                Sudden loud sounds may increase symptoms of vertigo, dizziness, or imbalance

                -I can't say I experience these issues all the time, but I have experienced them at least once. When I'm feeling it the most, meaning my bad days, and im in the gym and I'm watching my friends deadlift, the sound of the iron plates hitting the ground is louder than normal and almost makes me feel a shock in my head. It definitely aggravates symptoms more.


                COGNITIVE

                Difficulty concentrating and paying attention; easily distracted
                Forgetfulness and short-term memory lapses
                Confusion, disorientation, difficulty comprehending directions or instructions
                Difficulty following speakers in conversations, meetings, etc., especially when there is background noise or movement
                Mental and/or physical fatigue out of proportion to activity

                - I have all of this. I've had ADD my whole life but things have been different since the accutane. I have all the cognitive issues listed.


                PSYCHOLOGICAL

                Loss of self-reliance, self-confidence, self-esteem
                Anxiety, panic, social isolation
                Depression

                -yeah I have all of this too. Not as much social isolation but I feel uncomfortable at the bars or social settings because of things listed under cognitive. I feer dating because of those issues honestly. And yes, I have depression. Nobody knows this but it's there. I haven't told anybody. I've had some pretty rough days. Crazy that you guys at IM are the only ones who know. I've always had some anxiety but not like the feeling of not knowing whether you will ever feel normal again kind of anxiety. If I ever feel better and this all goes away, I'll likely never have anxiety again after this. That's like exposure therapy or something.


                OTHER

                Nausea or vomiting
                "Hangover" or "seasick" feeling in the head
                Motion sickness
                Sensation of fullness in the ears
                Headaches
                Slurred speech
                Sensitivity to pressure or temperature changes and wind currents
                Pain, pressure, or other symptoms with certain dietary changes (e.g., high sodium)


                -from this section I get the hangover or seasick feeling. Although hangover is more appropriate. Headaches and extra sensitivity to pressure changes like elevation. I've had naseua before but it's not constant but definitely associated with all my symptoms. I've only been nauseous a few times in my life before this whole thing so I know it's related.


                So, I think I have plenty to go on here to assume it's a vestibular disorder of some sort. How do you fix it? Not sure. I see physical therapy stuff but I'm sure there is more. Not interested in anymore drugs that's for sure.

                This month will be a year since my symptoms started after taking only a few doses of accutane. Nobody ever has had anything like this that had been documented. I will be contacting a lawyer soon about this and will seek a settlement with the makers of the drug only as long as the issues are resolved. If they aren't, I'm prepared for war. I truely feel that the way I feel will significantly decrease my quality of life in the long run as it already has this last hear. I grew up not believing in suing people, but this is different. This is my life.

                Thanks for the support and glad I have a place to talk about these off topic from bodybuilding issues.

                True Nutrition Discount: SRC745
                *2006 USAPL Washington State Powerlifting Championships- 1st, 14-16 age-148lb class -2nd Men's Open 148lb class
                •2x WABDL Worlds Runner Up - Teens 16-17 165lb
                *Former WABDL Teen 16-17 165lb World Record Bench Holder (Washington state record) of 396.6lbs

                Comment


                • #9
                  Reading this with great interest... I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind answering. Do you smoke, or have you recently stopped smoking? Do you take any anti-epileptic drugs? Are you using any herbal medications/supplements? (A list of ALL supplements/drugs/medications would be most helpful)

                  BTW, if you're interested in knowing.... assuming I'm following the same pathway of thought as your doctor: he is assuming that CYP450 is indeed the issue (which it very well may be). He is hoping that through giving your body more vitamin D to get rid of, your body will produce more enzymes, and take the rest of the accutane with it (...basically).

                  Does this doctor also know you are using steroids? (In this particular case, this is important).

                  If there is any of this you do not want to discuss openly on the forum, I understand. Feel free to PM me.
                  Last edited by MyTMouse; 03-07-2015, 08:10 AM.
                  My intro thread: http://intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=49855

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MyTMouse View Post
                    Reading this with great interest... I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind answering. Do you smoke, or have you recently stopped smoking? Do you take any anti-epileptic drugs? Are you using any herbal medications/supplements? (A list of ALL supplements/drugs/medications would be most helpful)

                    BTW, if you're interested in knowing.... assuming I'm following the same pathway of thought as your doctor: he is assuming that CYP450 is indeed the issue (which it very well may be). He is hoping that through giving your body more vitamin D to get rid of, your body will produce more enzymes, and take the rest of the accutane with it (...basically).

                    Does this doctor also know you are using steroids? (In this particular case, this is important).

                    If there is any of this you do not want to discuss openly on the forum, I understand. Feel free to PM me.
                    I don't not smoke but I can't say I haven't had some college party years where I have partaken in smoking a lot of weed. You know, young dumb kid shit lol I take klonipin for the anxiety from this whole thing. I believe its secondary use is anti epileptic. But this is used rarely.
                    Other than that just the valerian and melatonin for sleep.

                    We have tried the vitamin D thing discussed with no relief. Honestly I think if the stuff was still in my system I would know it and maybe even my blood work would have come back abnormal but who knows.


                    And no, the doctor does not know I use AAS but he probably assumes it. He makes little jokes and quips about it occasionally. I will be getting new health insurance when I turn 26 this year and having the fact I use AAS in my record might look bad lol I do have a friend who is a doctor though I have talked to about the AAS and the accutane use. I can discuss with her privately whenever I need regarding AAS use and medicinal issues but so far there have been none. I can't imagine testosterone replacement therapy doses would have any effect on accutane. If the vestibular stuff comes back negative then it might be the next place to look and come off after my show in July.

                    The vestibular stuff just fits so damn perfectly it's crazy. I've done countless hours of research and it's the only thing that has fit my symptoms to a T. I try not to get too excited about it though because I got that way with the assumption it was intracranial hypertension. Two lumbar punctures later I was left crushed!

                    I have no issue discussing this on the forum openly. So fire away with any ideas here on this thread. I appreciate the interest in it. Very few people I have come to about this give a shit.

                    True Nutrition Discount: SRC745
                    *2006 USAPL Washington State Powerlifting Championships- 1st, 14-16 age-148lb class -2nd Men's Open 148lb class
                    •2x WABDL Worlds Runner Up - Teens 16-17 165lb
                    *Former WABDL Teen 16-17 165lb World Record Bench Holder (Washington state record) of 396.6lbs

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Collabera View Post
                      I do have a friend who is a doctor though I have talked to about the AAS and the accutane use. I can discuss with her privately whenever I need regarding AAS use and medicinal issues but so far there have been none. I can't imagine testosterone replacement therapy doses would have any effect on accutane.
                      The reason I asked is that steroid hormones (including cholesterol) are also metabilized via p450 enzymes (there are many). Aromatase for example is a CYP450 enzyme. Your doctor friend may or may not know that, depending on what kind of medicine she practices. Also... I don't know if any of the same CYP450 enzymes are involved in the metabolism of both accutane and specific steroid hormones you are using. Both have quite the affinity for albumin, though, haha.

                      I don't think I responded to your accutane with a high-fat diet question. The absorption is indeed MUCH higher with a high-fat meal. I have read up to twice as high, if you can believe it. But the half-life of the drug remains the same, and full elimination of the drug from your system should have happened long ago (9.5 half-lives is typically the max you would use to calculate), assuming the enzymes that process it are being manufactured by your liver.

                      Keep looking into the vestibular disorder, maybe you will uncover something. If it helps you legally: maybe no one has reported vestibular disorder from accutane, but there have been cases of bone growth. If you can in any way medically draw a connection to bone growth in the inner ear causing this issue, it may help your case.

                      I gotta get outta here. We'll talk more later.

                      (None of this is medical advice. Simple speculation.)
                      My intro thread: http://intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=49855

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MyTMouse View Post
                        The reason I asked is that steroid hormones (including cholesterol) are also metabilized via p450 enzymes (there are many). Aromatase for example is a CYP450 enzyme. Your doctor friend may or may not know that, depending on what kind of medicine she practices. Also... I don't know if any of the same CYP450 enzymes are involved in the metabolism of both accutane and specific steroid hormones you are using. Both have quite the affinity for albumin, though, haha.
                        Yeah I have heard some of this. I have definitely looked into the AAS being an issue but theres just nothing I can find that is bulletproof info like the vestibular stuff. Besides, guys use accutane on cycle all the time. Not at the same mg though(i used 50 in the morning and 40 at night. Sides started with first dose). Its funny, the one thing in bodybuilding where guys dont do the more is better approach lol I think if it was a liver thing, I would have had a much bigger problem with Dbol or Winny which I have not.

                        Originally posted by MyTMouse View Post
                        I don't think I responded to your accutane with a high-fat diet question. The absorption is indeed MUCH higher with a high-fat meal. I have read up to twice as high, if you can believe it. But the half-life of the drug remains the same, and full elimination of the drug from your system should have happened long ago (9.5 half-lives is typically the max you would use to calculate), assuming the enzymes that process it are being manufactured by your liver.
                        Yeah the absorption of the accutane is significantly higher with a high fat meal. I asked a Toxicologist what he thinks they mean by high fat meal and he said(estimated) probably 25-35 grams per meal. On the particular diet I was on(keto-carb cycling) it was more like 40-60.

                        Originally posted by MyTMouse View Post
                        Keep looking into the vestibular disorder, maybe you will uncover something. If it helps you legally: maybe no one has reported vestibular disorder from accutane, but there have been cases of bone growth. If you can in any way medically draw a connection to bone growth in the inner ear causing this issue, it may help your case.
                        You would think that by now the makers of the drug would have done all they can to prevent themselves from being sued. Clearly their list of sides is quite long but my issues are not on that list nor are there any documented cases like this. Even those who overdosed recovered and relatively quickly. Sometimes I wonder what it would be like if I didn't take the second or third dose.

                        True Nutrition Discount: SRC745
                        *2006 USAPL Washington State Powerlifting Championships- 1st, 14-16 age-148lb class -2nd Men's Open 148lb class
                        •2x WABDL Worlds Runner Up - Teens 16-17 165lb
                        *Former WABDL Teen 16-17 165lb World Record Bench Holder (Washington state record) of 396.6lbs

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Collabera View Post
                          Yeah I have heard some of this. I have definitely looked into the AAS being an issue but theres just nothing I can find that is bulletproof info like the vestibular stuff. Besides, guys use accutane on cycle all the time. Not at the same mg though(i used 50 in the morning and 40 at night. Sides started with first dose). Its funny, the one thing in bodybuilding where guys dont do the more is better approach lol I think if it was a liver thing, I would have had a much bigger problem with Dbol or Winny which I have not.
                          Some guys use it on cycle all the time, but YOU don't. I didn't do a very good job explaining what I meant, because I was in a hurry. I was getting at the fact that there are tons of enzymes that fall into that category, and some we know exist, but don't know what they do. So you may (seriously) lack one gene/protein/enzyme that processes the drug. It seems incredibly unlikely. But I wanted to give you another route to explore, should your current hunt come up fruitless.

                          Originally posted by Collabera View Post
                          Yeah the absorption of the accutane is significantly higher with a high fat meal. I asked a Toxicologist what he thinks they mean by high fat meal and he said(estimated) probably 25-35 grams per meal. On the particular diet I was on(keto-carb cycling) it was more like 40-60.
                          That means you were right where you need to be. Prescribing guidelines as I have read them call for a high-fat, high-calorie meal. Clinically, you're looking at high-fat being defined as 50% or more calories being from fat. High-calorie, 800+ cals. So figure on 50-60 grams of fat being ideal.


                          Originally posted by Collabera View Post
                          You would think that by now the makers of the drug would have done all they can to prevent themselves from being sued. Clearly their list of sides is quite long but my issues are not on that list nor are there any documented cases like this. Even those who overdosed recovered and relatively quickly. Sometimes I wonder what it would be like if I didn't take the second or third dose.
                          Like I said before, you just need to find a way to connect the two. Talk to your doctor friend and look over known side effects. Even if what you're experiencing isn't listed, find a link between the two (like what I mentioned with bone growth, which it seems isn't the cause, since it happened so fast). Accutane can lead to high uric acid in the blood, for example. See if you can find any possible link to the drug. "I didn't have symptoms prior, and I have had them ever since my first dose" MIGHT work... but it might not.

                          Good luck to you on the legal side of it. Maybe try to get in on one of the class-action lawsuits against them for accutane.
                          My intro thread: http://intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=49855

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MyTMouse View Post
                            Some guys use it on cycle all the time, but YOU don't. I didn't do a very good job explaining what I meant, because I was in a hurry. I was getting at the fact that there are tons of enzymes that fall into that category, and some we know exist, but don't know what they do. So you may (seriously) lack one gene/protein/enzyme that processes the drug. It seems incredibly unlikely. But I wanted to give you another route to explore, should your current hunt come up fruitless.
                            I understood what you meant. I know there are a lot of these P450 Cytochrome enzymes. All I know is that valerian root inhibits one of them but I am not sure if it is the same one that breaks down accutane. There have been a few cases of valerian causing liver problems. My blood work has always been fine though.

                            I sent you a PM regarding another theory.

                            True Nutrition Discount: SRC745
                            *2006 USAPL Washington State Powerlifting Championships- 1st, 14-16 age-148lb class -2nd Men's Open 148lb class
                            •2x WABDL Worlds Runner Up - Teens 16-17 165lb
                            *Former WABDL Teen 16-17 165lb World Record Bench Holder (Washington state record) of 396.6lbs

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Collabera View Post
                              I understood what you meant. I know there are a lot of these P450 Cytochrome enzymes. All I know is that valerian root inhibits one of them but I am not sure if it is the same one that breaks down accutane. There have been a few cases of valerian causing liver problems. My blood work has always been fine though.

                              I sent you a PM regarding another theory.
                              Cool. I know that when I write stuff, it gets a little jumbled and wordy... that's why i proofread stuff... except on forums, lol.
                              My intro thread: http://intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=49855

                              Comment

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