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  • Pre/Peri/Post insulin levels

    We all know that we want an insulin spike post workout to facilitate protein synthesis. Though, as I listened to PED episode 9 I noticed they discussed introducing exogenous insulin PRE workout and how guys were getting better results: Stronger, better recovery, actually getting leaner rather than fatter.

    For those that have experience or insight: Do you think that a natural insulin spike pre-workout would provide the same effect>? Or is it the exogenous insulin being introduced without the sugar activating it's release that provides these benefits?

    For example, taking in a copious amount of carbs (probably a drink) just before hitting the gym. By copious, I mean similar to what Dante has recommended for POST, ie., (75-100g fast acting carbs)

    I know Homon has written some great stuff on this: Pre, Peri, Post RS. Homon, perhaps you addressed this in what you've written and I missed it.
    If so, maybe you can point it out and post it here??
    I'm wondering how the above mentioned insulin stuff fits into all of that.
    Or maybe I just have a complete misunderstanding of the whole concept.:noidea:

    Either way, I'm looking to learn and grow - mentally and physically!

    Looking forward to the input!
    Unless a man undertakes more than he can possibly do, he will never do all he can.

    Unfathomable progress is the result of consistent, daily steps toward a single goal


  • #2
    Can we discuss PEDs Skip? Meaning the use of exogenous insulin?
    Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

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    • #3
      I've covered much of this one way or another.

      Some factoids:

      Both carbs and protein can cause insulin release, and the two act synergistically (additively).

      Exercise will reduce the gastric emptying and reduce the insulin release you get from food taken in.

      The extent of insulin elevation is a matter of the carb and protein sources and amounts, how they interact and how exercise affects both absorption and suppression of insulin release.


      Insulin elevations from an injection will depend on the kind of insulin, the mechanism of delivery (sub q vs. IM vs. others that most folks won't be using) and for injections, the elevation of skin temperature and muscle blood from from the exercise.

      All in all, you'll get a more predictable insulin release from the injection b/c there is no physiological regulation of its entry into the blood. (It's possible that hepatic degradation might also be affected during exercise.)

      ----------------

      INsulin presentation to the active muscle will be increased dramatically d/t increased blodo flow. The supra physiological elevations of insulin with injection mean you can dramatically increase presentation during exercise. The same is true with endogenously released insulin, but there are limits d/t enteric nervous system control.

      If you were to just take in carbs before a long workout, you'd risk reactive hypoglycemia during your workout (or perhaps just after).

      All of the reasons that I've noted for using recovery supplements pre and intra, as well as post -workout apply here. What was said on the PED episode wrt pre-wrokout insulin is reflection of the benefits some find in using a peri-workout RS (vs. just a post-WO RS, with the results magnified by the effects of supra physiological insulin.

      -S
      The Book Has Arrived!
      The Book Has Arrived!

      Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


      www.TrueNutrition.com

      2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
      2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
      2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

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      • #4
        I use a prei-workout supplementation scheme and occasionally I get a Hypoglycemic response and can't figure out why, usually on a low carb day <50 other than peri workout which contains 14g EAA and 32g HBCD

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mentalflex View Post
          Can we discuss PEDs Skip? Meaning the use of exogenous insulin?
          I want to but I haven't discussed adding the gear forum back in yet with the rest of the team.

          Here is what I propose: Start a thread about it and we will decide what to do with the thread after we discuss the gear forum. We may just end up deleting it after a discussion. Note in the thread that I ok'd it.

          Skip


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          • #6
            Originally posted by RobbHensel View Post
            I use a prei-workout supplementation scheme and occasionally I get a Hypoglycemic response and can't figure out why, usually on a low carb day <50 other than peri workout which contains 14g EAA and 32g HBCD
            This is reactive hypoglycemia, I'd bet.

            I'd start your peri-WO shake after you've started training. This will lower the insulin response and decrease the driving force that's lowering your BG.

            (You might have a little extra of your drink on hand, too, for safety sake... I'd rather be the obnoxious guy reminding you of the obvious than the guy who wishes he'd said something.)

            -S
            The Book Has Arrived!
            The Book Has Arrived!

            Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


            www.TrueNutrition.com

            2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
            2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
            2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

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            • #7
              Originally posted by mentalflex View Post
              Can we discuss PEDs Skip? Meaning the use of exogenous insulin?
              Perhaps I am completely and utterly shrouded in ignorance here, but I thought exogenous insulin was legal, as in, you don't need a script. Shouldn't you just be able to go get insulin at the local drug store like Arbor Drugs or CVS...along with the BG test kits and pins? or...:whisper:

              -----------------------------------------------------------------------


              Most excellent with the words, you are, Homon! Most informative...This is just what the doctor ordered.

              If I understand you correctly...(for some) Peri- RS with (Exo slin Pre) for best (magnified) results.:whoo:


              Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
              I've covered much of this one way or another.

              Some factoids:

              Both carbs and protein can cause insulin release, and the two act synergistically (additively).

              Exercise will reduce the gastric emptying and reduce the insulin release you get from food taken in.

              The extent of insulin elevation is a matter of the carb and protein sources and amounts, how they interact and how exercise affects both absorption and suppression of insulin release.


              Insulin elevations from an injection will depend on the kind of insulin, the mechanism of delivery (sub q vs. IM vs. others that most folks won't be using) and for injections, the elevation of skin temperature and muscle blood from from the exercise.

              All in all, you'll get a more predictable insulin release from the injection b/c there is no physiological regulation of its entry into the blood. (It's possible that hepatic degradation might also be affected during exercise.)

              ----------------

              INsulin presentation to the active muscle will be increased dramatically d/t increased blodo flow. The supra physiological elevations of insulin with injection mean you can dramatically increase presentation during exercise. The same is true with endogenously released insulin, but there are limits d/t enteric nervous system control.

              If you were to just take in carbs before a long workout, you'd risk reactive hypoglycemia during your workout (or perhaps just after).

              All of the reasons that I've noted for using recovery supplements pre and intra, as well as post -workout apply here. What was said on the PED episode wrt pre-wrokout insulin is reflection of the benefits some find in using a peri-workout RS (vs. just a post-WO RS, with the results magnified by the effects of supra physiological insulin.

              -S
              Unless a man undertakes more than he can possibly do, he will never do all he can.

              Unfathomable progress is the result of consistent, daily steps toward a single goal

              Comment


              • #8
                I think you are wrong about insulin being legal and sold in cvs etc... Here in the states.
                SAVE 5-10% @ TRUENUTRITION.com Use code: LG100

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                • #9
                  Pre/Peri/Post insulin levels

                  Originally posted by gsop_3 View Post
                  Perhaps I am completely and utterly shrouded in ignorance here, but I thought exogenous insulin was legal, as in, you don't need a script. Shouldn't you just be able to go get insulin at the local drug store like Arbor Drugs or CVS...along with the BG test kits and pins? or...:whisper:

                  -----------------------------------------------------------------------


                  Originally posted by LG1 View Post
                  I think you are wrong about insulin being legal and sold in cvs etc... Here in the states.



                  Novolin R / Humalin R are available at Walmart without a script for $26 (novolin).

                  Humalog requires a script.

                  If the discussion lent itself to discussing insulin, humalog would certainly be discussed.
                  Last edited by mentalflex; 11-15-2014, 09:17 AM.
                  Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

                  Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

                  2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
                  2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
                  2015 Beat Cancer!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ken "Skip" Hill View Post
                    I want to but I haven't discussed adding the gear forum back in yet with the rest of the team.



                    Here is what I propose: Start a thread about it and we will decide what to do with the thread after we discuss the gear forum. We may just end up deleting it after a discussion. Note in the thread that I ok'd it.



                    Skip

                    A thread to discuss insulin or a thread to discuss adding a PED forum?
                    Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

                    Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

                    2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
                    2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
                    2015 Beat Cancer!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mentalflex View Post
                      A thread to discuss insulin or a thread to discuss adding a PED forum?
                      Would be nice to have a hidden/private forum that only shows up after xx posts and/or xx length of time on IM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by gsop_3 View Post
                        Most excellent with the words, you are, Homon! Most informative...This is just what the doctor ordered.

                        If I understand you correctly...(for some) Peri- RS with (Exo slin Pre) for best (magnified) results.:whoo:
                        Glad it was helpful.

                        I'm not suggesting anyone use exogenous insulin, GSOP, but hopefully you have an ice of why it could have the effect that was discussed in that podcast.

                        -S
                        The Book Has Arrived!
                        The Book Has Arrived!

                        Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                        www.TrueNutrition.com

                        2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                        2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                        2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                          Glad it was helpful.



                          I'm not suggesting anyone use exogenous insulin, GSOP, but hopefully you have an ice of why it could have the effect that was discussed in that podcast.



                          -S

                          More than anything, it's strictly educational.
                          I'm a curious guy and a life long learner so the more I can learn and understand, the better.

                          For me personally, I easily go "reactive hypo" so the idea of using exogenous insulin isn't at the top of my list.

                          Would you say that someone who easily goes hypoglycemic like that is over-sensitive to carbs and the body just dumps too much insulin into the system therefore causing the "crash?"
                          I say carbs because it never happens to me if I consume an adequate amount of protein with the carbs.
                          Physiologically, how does that fit in with the whole "workout window?"
                          Is there an advantage to be had here?
                          Or is it a negative?

                          I do know that protein produces a bigger insulin response (overall) than carbs but at a different (much slower) rate. I'm assuming that's why no "crash" with the protein/carb combo as opposed to straight carbs. Also, large meals with so many carbs makes me profoundly lethargic...

                          Thoughts?


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                          Unless a man undertakes more than he can possibly do, he will never do all he can.

                          Unfathomable progress is the result of consistent, daily steps toward a single goal

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I also seem to easily go reactive hypo too, so most of my cals during daytime come from protein and fats. I actually went for a diabetes test twice, but they only tested my morning fasted blood levels, which turned out in the normal range.

                            Like mentioned by others, I've found that if I wait until mid-workout to start sipping my pro carb recovery shake, my blood sugar levels seem to be OK. Right now I train early morning, and besides from my intra workout shake, I don't have anymore carbs in the day until late evening close to bed time. This seems to keep me functional during the day. Plus, going hypo when I'm in bed isn't really a huge issue, besides the inconvenience of waking up through the night drenched in sweat and shaky. So most nights when I wake up, I just go down to the kitchen and eat something pro/fats which seems to help restabilise blood sugar levels, and then I go back to sleep.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by gsop_3 View Post
                              More than anything, it's strictly educational.
                              I'm a curious guy and a life long learner so the more I can learn and understand, the better.

                              For me personally, I easily go "reactive hypo" so the idea of using exogenous insulin isn't at the top of my list.

                              Would you say that someone who easily goes hypoglycemic like that is over-sensitive to carbs and the body just dumps too much insulin into the system therefore causing the "crash?"
                              Possibly. (Your question suggestions you don't understand the physiology underlying exercise-induced reactive hypoglycemia.)

                              I say carbs because it never happens to me if I consume an adequate amount of protein with the carbs.
                              Protein slows carb absorption of carbs.

                              This can happen with a carb / AA source. I just interacted with someone who has that issue.


                              Physiologically, how does that fit in with the whole "workout window?"
                              Is there an advantage to be had here?
                              Or is it a negative?
                              Not quite sure what you mean by "that" and "it." (Sorry, man.)

                              -S
                              The Book Has Arrived!
                              The Book Has Arrived!

                              Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                              www.TrueNutrition.com

                              2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                              2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                              2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

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