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  • Scott, a rebuttal?

    Ok so this topic has been beaten to death, but I'm curious what your response would be to these 2 articles/studies. I know your a huge proponent of pre/peri/post workout nutrition, but are we over doing it? These 2 articles/studies suggest people are over doing it and the science supports less is more. Would a simple 20g protein with some BCAAs pre and 20g protein/40g carbs intra/post be best for most people, and all those extra carbs/cals are doing more bad then good? By most I Guess I'm referring to the cliche average 200lb male but in our case fairly lean, 8-12-% bf. Even if we presume people bigger, would the numbers really have to change that much. I know you've talked about working up to a 2k cal shake pre/post/intra so curious your thoughts. I guess that brings up another topic of can we even process these huge loads at once, and would spreading it out be more optimal. Possibly even post workout we only need a marginal amount. Ok I'm rambling now I'll leave the floor to you

    http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=34547

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...r-not-to-carb/

    I've referenced this Texas study before with you, but still can't remember where I first read it
    MachMood
    Banned
    Last edited by MachMood; 05-03-2014, 03:29 PM.

  • #2
    Mach, I just have one question for you... If you are trying to gain as much lean body mass as possible where would you concentrate your calories? What about if you wanted to retain as much lean body mass as possible while dieting and in a caloric deficit?
    mentalflex
    ISOM Winner February 2012
    Last edited by mentalflex; 05-03-2014, 04:22 PM.
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    • #3
      Hey man this is my question, sometimes what seems to be obvious isn't. If x amount does the job, then why overload at a specific time(overloading could be less optimal) Not saying one way is right or wrong, just looking at the facts and trying to decifer. Maybe a smaller amount spread out is better then a large amount around the workout. Again just reading some study's and these are the questions that pop into my head. One immediate question that arises is if we look at the Texas study, are those extra carbs really hindering you ala extra fat gain?
      MachMood
      Banned
      Last edited by MachMood; 05-03-2014, 05:20 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MachMood View Post
        Ok so this topic has been beaten to death, but I'm curious what your response would be to these 2 articles/studies. I know your a huge proponent of pre/peri/post workout nutrition, but are we over doing it? These 2 articles/studies suggest people are over doing it and the science supports less is more. Would a simple 20g protein with some BCAAs pre and 20g protein/40g carbs intra/post be best for most people, and all those extra carbs/cals are doing more bad then good? By most I Guess I'm referring to the cliche average 200lb male but in our case fairly lean, 8-12-% bf. Even if we presume people bigger, would the numbers really have to change that much. I know you've talked about working up to a 2k cal shake pre/post/intra so curious your thoughts. I guess that brings up another topic of can we even process these huge loads at once, and would spreading it out be more optimal. Possibly even post workout we only need a marginal amount. Ok I'm rambling now I'll leave the floor to you

        http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=34547

        http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...r-not-to-carb/

        I've referenced this Texas study before with you, but still can't remember where I first read it
        -------The first study supports peri-WO RS. I address how much to consume here :http://articles.elitefts.com/nutriti...tation-part-3/

        Fred Duncan missed mentioning the other studies by Koopman et al.:
        1. Koopman, R., et al., Co-ingestion of leucine with protein does not further augment post-exercise muscle protein synthesis rates in elderly men. Br J Nutr, 2008. 99(3): p. 571-80. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=17697406
        2. Koopman, R., et al., Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, 2005. 288(4): p. E645 - 53.

        -------------
        I address carbs and cortisol here::

        http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...tation-part-1/

        Laboratory vs. The Long-Haul: Cortisol, You Sneaky Bast*#d!

        Training progress takes time. Progress takes repeated brutal efforts with consistent nutrition and adequate recovery over the course of months and years. The temporal window through which researchers peer when using small muscle mass acute exercise tests (often using untrained subjects—which I’ll address in Part 2) may not predict long haul gains (for various, fairly obvious reasons such as uncontrolled dietary changes, level of training effort, general variability among trainees (25), etc.). One dastardly culprit clouding the picture may also be cortisol (the “sneaky bastard”), a catabolic/proteolytic stress hormone (26) antagonistic to the anabolic effects of insulin and growth hormone (27-29) that also gets released during exercise simply for fuel handling (carb, fat, and protein oxidation).

        The harder you push yourself, the heavier the load (30). Also, the more work you do in a given amount of time (31-33), the greater the cortisol release. This means that a brutal 90-minute training session while blasting Iron Maiden in your garage gym just might elicit a bit more cortisol release than a 45- to 60-minute workout guided by an anonymous, lab coat-donning graduate student counting your reps in tempo with a metronome. On the other hand, research (and common sense) suggests that keeping cortisol levels under control, both post-exercise—which actually occurs during the course of positive training adaptation (34)—and in general (“resting levels”), may be vitally associated with training progress (35, 36). In other words, living with high stress doesn’t help you grow.

        Unfortunately, using acute post-workout cortisol release to gauge how an RS impacts recovery may be complicated by the fact that the macronutrient composition of the RS itself can cause cortisol variation. Consuming an extremely high protein meal or a protein-only meal raises cortisol (37, 38), whereas consuming carbs will reduce blood cortisol levels (38, 39). Not surprisingly, post-resistance exercise RS blends elevate (31) or have no effect (33, 40) on cortisol, while intra-RS also had no effect(41) and reduced cortisol post-workout (42). In the context of this mish-mash of results, it seems that the uncertainty about whether carbohydrates are a worthwhile addition to peri-workout RS (8, 9) rests primarily with a single acute study that lacked cortisol measurements. However, it demonstrated that adding 50 grams of carbohydrates to 25 grams of protein to a post-exercise RS had no effect on muscle protein breakdown or synthesis during the first three hours post-exercise(43).

        More revealing to me, however, is a training study showing that repeated consumption of an intra-workout RS that reduces cortisol during and after exercise (42) also translates into less muscle breakdown (44). Most importantly, it translates into greater muscle growth, week by week. In fact, the muscle gains in this study correlated with the attenuation of the cortisol response over the course of training (45). In other words, the less cortisol was elevated, the better the subjects grew. The difficulty in connecting cortisol elevations with an immediate impact on protein metabolism (i.e., when the experimental design only includes short-term measurements) may lie in cortisol’s relatively slow proteolytic effects, which can take hours to manifest (46) and be imperceptible when using the protein tracer methodology typically employed to measure metabolism in acute exercise studies (27, 47, 48).
        -S
        The Book Has Arrived!
        The Book Has Arrived!

        Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


        www.TrueNutrition.com

        2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
        2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
        2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

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        • #5
          Awesome thanks. I was surprised to see you loosely reccomend 50g protein and 100g carbs for a 250lb bodybuilder. If we're referring to a mass adding phase, do you think there's a vague but generic pro/carb amount compared to someone's Weignt when looking at pre/intra/peri all combined. For example I'm 190lbs at 11% and about to slowly try and add mass, was this protocol a bit to much to start?

          Pre- Wake up and take bcaa boost with 24g debiterized hydro whey
          Intra/post- 50g whey or hydro(depending on Taste) with 2 scoops KARBOLOAD (92g carbs)

          I know it's about overall daily cals, but again can puting to many cals around The Workout start becoming negative , especially if this causes you to have to space
          Out meals due to fewer calories being left
          MachMood
          Banned
          Last edited by MachMood; 05-03-2014, 08:55 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by MachMood View Post
            Awesome thanks. I was surprised to see you loosely reccomend 50g protein and 100g carbs for a 250lb bodybuilder.
            You're welcome.

            I gave an example, not a recommendation.

            If we're referring to a mass adding phase, do you think there's a vague but generic pro/carb amount compared to someone's Weignt when looking at pre/intra/peri all combined
            MM,

            I'll be honest. I don't think you've picked up on the various nuances if inter individuality, timing of pre-exercise meals, overall dietary strategy, timing of the workout, variability in DI distress.

            You could just relativize the example to a persons body mass and get a generic example.

            s I mentioned in Part One, many of the naysayers also complain of GI issues.
            You may need to experiment with carbohydrate sources
            While some research suggests that only 20 grams of (egg) protein maximizes post-exercise protein synthesis (6), let’s face it…you are likely consuming 200 to 300 grams of protein a day. There is certain logic to including at least a meal-proportionate amount of protein in your RS (more than 20 grams).
            Bodybuilders who play “catch up” with a massive food intake or an extreme high-calorie post-workout regime during the 12 to 24 hours after a workout (8, 9) might also find that peri-workout RS is not helpful.
            -S
            The Book Has Arrived!
            The Book Has Arrived!

            Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


            www.TrueNutrition.com

            2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
            2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
            2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MachMood View Post
              Awesome thanks. I was surprised to see you loosely reccomend 50g protein and 100g carbs for a 250lb bodybuilder. If we're referring to a mass adding phase, do you think there's a vague but generic pro/carb amount compared to someone's Weignt when looking at pre/intra/peri all combined. For example I'm 190lbs at 11% and about to slowly try and add mass, was this protocol a bit to much to start?

              Pre- Wake up and take bcaa boost with 24g debiterized hydro whey
              Intra/post- 50g whey or hydro(depending on Taste) with 2 scoops KARBOLOAD (92g carbs)

              I know it's about overall daily cals, but again can puting to many cals around The Workout start becoming negative , especially if this causes you to have to space
              Out meals due to fewer calories being lef
              t
              Yes, of course. I've never seen this happen practically speaking however.

              -S
              The Book Has Arrived!
              The Book Has Arrived!

              Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


              www.TrueNutrition.com

              2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
              2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
              2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

              Comment


              • #8
                Since I started using Pre/intra/post concoctions of higher protein and carbs based on Homon's suggestions in his articles I have made some big changes. I got a little leaner but kept my muscle (which was previously a problem when leaning out) and got a change in overall look.

                It is hard to explain but instead of being just big it has added a sort of ruggedness to the muscles.

                I like eating less at other meals too and thus not feeling too full all the time. I built up to it and the big workout shake doesn't affect me at all in a negative way. My friends don't know how I can keep it all down.
                "Be gentle in what you do, firm in how you do it."
                Buck Brannaman.

                "It is the certainty of punishment that deters crime, not the severity of it."
                'Hanging' Judge PARKER

                "Nothing is so powerful as an insight into human nature... what compulsions drive a man, what instincts dominate his action... if you know these things about a man you can touch him at the core of his being."
                ~William Bernbach

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                • #9
                  ^ when seeing the composition change did you keep calories constant and just move some around to accommodate an intra drink or just add cals?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SAHD View Post
                    Since I started using Pre/intra/post concoctions of higher protein and carbs based on Homon's suggestions in his articles I have made some big changes. I got a little leaner but kept my muscle (which was previously a problem when leaning out) and got a change in overall look.

                    It is hard to explain but instead of being just big it has added a sort of ruggedness to the muscles.

                    I like eating less at other meals too and thus not feeling too full all the time. I built up to it and the big workout shake doesn't affect me at all in a negative way. My friends don't know how I can keep it all down.
                    Check is in the mail!!! LOL

                    -S
                    The Book Has Arrived!
                    The Book Has Arrived!

                    Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                    www.TrueNutrition.com

                    2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                    2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                    2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                      Check is in the mail!!! LOL

                      -S
                      Ph.D., Theoretical Physics '16
                      kind of a douche

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Scott will your book contain any non training information. Things like diet, intra workout, supplementation?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MachMood View Post
                          Scott will your book contain any non training information. Things like diet, intra workout, supplementation?
                          Yep! It's over 100 pages and 500+ references, all of which I'll expect you to read with great vigor.

                          -S
                          The Book Has Arrived!
                          The Book Has Arrived!

                          Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                          www.TrueNutrition.com

                          2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                          2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                          2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That's awsome I'll def pick up a copy
                            I see you didn't take a s#!t before deadlifting....
                            I too like to live dangerously

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DC_catholic315 View Post
                              That's awsome I'll def pick up a copy
                              It's a mythical book. It has said to be released soon, but some think it doesn't even exist and is pure folk lore. . .on a serious note have you given a general time frame? 2 months, 4 months, 6 months ?

                              Comment

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