Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

All About Eccentrics… EliteFTS™ Article

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • All About Eccentrics… EliteFTS™ Article

    THought mentalflex would like this.

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...aining-primer/

    -S
    Last edited by homonunculus; 04-18-2014, 07:20 PM.
    The Book Has Arrived!
    The Book Has Arrived!

    Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


    www.TrueNutrition.com

    2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
    2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
    2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

  • #2
    Nice article Scott! I understood some of those words

    Not claiming I came up with it obviously but I have a theory with free weights...I think it's safe to say that the general consensus is free weights is better than machines. Reason being? The prevailing reason is that it activates the "stabilizing muscles" (whatever the hell those are).

    MY theory is free weights are better than machines not because it forces you to use "stabilizing muscles", but because free weights force you to control the negative, to a much greater extent than machines where you can let the weight free-fall safely then push or pull it back. I'm sure we're all a little guilty of hopping on that hammer strength, stacking on plates. Start our set and go crazy on that positive, do a "safe fall" so you can save enough energy for that 2nd and 3rd rep and so on.

    Now I know there are peeps out there who can do the piston-like reps with say, dumbell bench press, but I doubt they are doing that with their top sets (or should at least.)

    Ahhh, so it all ties together. My friends teased me when I explain how negatives were of great importance, only using Dante's explanation with gymnasts and rowers. Even though I was a believer of it then, they were not satisfied with Dante's explanation. Now I can shove some science in their face

    Concerning this statement under the pic of John Meadows on the leg press...

    "Even doing twice as many sets of concentric-only repetitions does not compensate for leaving out the lowering contractions." was that tested or a statement for emphasis? Just curious.

    edit.

    Oh! And just to help support the importance of negatives (not that it is needed as the article is plenty sufficient) I've noticed my hams only get sore from doing stiff-leg db deads. As Dorian explains, "Imagine you are slowly compressing a spring (the negative) and releasing it (the positive)".
    Last edited by theroymccoy; 04-18-2014, 10:11 PM.
    Max Muscle
    5020 Katella Ave.
    Los Alamitos, CA 90720
    www.MaxMuscleLosAlamitos.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by theroymccoy View Post
      Nice article Scott! I understood some of those words

      Not claiming I came up with it obviously but I have a theory with free weights...I think it's safe to say that the general consensus is free weights is better than machines. Reason being? The prevailing reason is that it activates the "stabilizing muscles" (whatever the hell those are).

      MY theory is free weights are better than machines not because it forces you to use "stabilizing muscles", but because free weights force you to control the negative, to a much greater extent than machines where you can let the weight free-fall safely then push or pull it back. I'm sure we're all a little guilty of hopping on that hammer strength, stacking on plates. Start our set and go crazy on that positive, do a "safe fall" so you can save enough energy for that 2nd and 3rd rep and so on.

      Now I know there are peeps out there who can do the piston-like reps with say, dumbell bench press, but I doubt they are doing that with their top sets (or should at least.)
      Ever see someone on a hack squat, for instance, push up one way and lower using what seems like a different body position?… It's common to be able to focus on a particular muscle not he concentric and the eccentric is sort of an afterthought (when one goes back to a different, more habitual activation pattern).

      Ahhh, so it all ties together. My friends teased me when I explain how negatives were of great importance, only using Dante's explanation with gymnasts and rowers. Even though I was a believer of it then, they were not satisfied with Dante's explanation. Now I can shove some science in their face

      Concerning this statement under the pic of John Meadows on the leg press...

      "Even doing twice as many sets of concentric-only repetitions does not compensate for leaving out the lowering contractions." was that tested or a statement for emphasis? Just curious.[/QUOTE]

      Yes, that's in the Hather et al. (35) and Dudley et al. (36) citations from the sentence before hand:

      When it comes to leg press (dynamic “isotonic”) exercise, leaving out the lowering (eccentric) portion of each repetition produces inferior muscle strength (three repetition maximum) (35) and size gains (36). Even doing twice as many sets of concentric-only repetitions does not compensate for leaving out the lowering contractions.


      I split them up in the previous sentence to refer specifically to the different findings (strength and size) in that sentence. I'm VERY GLAD you're looking for references… This is a peculiar instance where the context of the previous sentence confers citation to the next one.

      It would be like me saying, "My mother told me to always say please and thank you. Expressing gratitude was very a important lesson."

      In the second sentence above, you can figure out from context (these were lessons taught by mother) that this was a notion taught by that person's mother.



      edit.


      Oh! And just to help support the importance of negatives (not that it is needed as the article is plenty sufficient) I've noticed my hams only get sore from doing stiff-leg db deads. As Dorian explains, "Imagine you are slowly compressing a spring (the negative) and releasing it (the positive)".
      You might give the lift up with two, lower with one option with ham curls, and make sure to point your toes on the eccentrics (take the gastric out of the movement as much as possible).

      -S
      The Book Has Arrived!
      The Book Has Arrived!

      Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


      www.TrueNutrition.com

      2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
      2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
      2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
        Ever see someone on a hack squat, for instance, push up one way and lower using what seems like a different body position?… It's common to be able to focus on a particular muscle not he concentric and the eccentric is sort of an afterthought (when one goes back to a different, more habitual activation pattern).
        Yep I've noticed that. I've done it myself...sometimes you get caught up (in DC) with beating numbers that the form breaks down just to get that extra rep. After I cruise I might just keep all the same exercises and drop the weight but really work that negative.

        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
        Yes, that's in the Hather et al. (35) and Dudley et al. (36) citations from the sentence before hand:

        When it comes to leg press (dynamic “isotonic”) exercise, leaving out the lowering (eccentric) portion of each repetition produces inferior muscle strength (three repetition maximum) (35) and size gains (36). Even doing twice as many sets of concentric-only repetitions does not compensate for leaving out the lowering contractions.


        I split them up in the previous sentence to refer specifically to the different findings (strength and size) in that sentence. I'm VERY GLAD you're looking for references… This is a peculiar instance where the context of the previous sentence confers citation to the next one.

        It would be like me saying, "My mother told me to always say please and thank you. Expressing gratitude was very a important lesson."

        In the second sentence above, you can figure out from context (these were lessons taught by mother) that this was a notion taught by that person's mother.
        Oh gotcha thanks for the clarification!

        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
        You might give the lift up with two, lower with one option with ham curls, and make sure to point your toes on the eccentrics (take the gastric out of the movement as much as possible).

        -S
        But my gastroc is ALSO small! Everything needs to get HYOOGE. No but seriously I'll definitely start doing that. Thank you again!
        Max Muscle
        5020 Katella Ave.
        Los Alamitos, CA 90720
        www.MaxMuscleLosAlamitos.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by theroymccoy View Post
          Yep I've noticed that. I've done it myself...sometimes you get caught up (in DC) with beating numbers that the form breaks down just to get that extra rep. After I cruise I might just keep all the same exercises and drop the weight but really work that negative.



          Oh gotcha thanks for the clarification!



          But my gastroc is ALSO small! Everything needs to get HYOOGE. No but seriously I'll definitely start doing that. Thank you again!
          LOL - You're welcome…

          For small gastroc's, go with two up, one down donkey calf raises…

          -S
          The Book Has Arrived!
          The Book Has Arrived!

          Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


          www.TrueNutrition.com

          2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
          2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
          2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

          Comment


          • #6
            All About Eccentrics… EliteFTS™ Article

            Been traveling for a few days and haven't had a chance to read this... I'm gonna read this Scott, I'm sure it's right up me alley. How many conversations have we had about the role of eccentrics and muscle damage?

            EDIT: reading it on my phone... Damn, this is so much like what Scott has brought up to me in conversation / email. Some things I did not know about the shortcomings of eccentrics.

            Thanks again for such an incredible article Doc!
            Last edited by mentalflex; 04-20-2014, 11:11 AM.
            Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

            Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

            2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
            2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
            2015 Beat Cancer!

            Comment


            • #7
              Mentflex, after you translate please write a brief summary

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mentalflex View Post
                Been traveling for a few days and haven't had a chance to read this... I'm gonna read this Scott, I'm sure it's right up me alley. How many conversations have we had about the role of eccentrics and muscle damage?
                More than a few, I think. I see you mentioning the topic now and again, so I figured this might be a nice resource.

                EDIT: reading it on my phone... Damn, this is so much like what Scott has brought up to me in conversation / email. Some things I did not know about the shortcomings of eccentrics.

                Thanks again for such an incredible article Doc!
                You're welcome!!!

                Originally posted by Herculeus View Post
                Mentflex, after you translate please write a brief summary
                LOL


                "Eccentrics For Eccentrics For Dummies"

                -Mentalflex



                ----------

                -S
                The Book Has Arrived!
                The Book Has Arrived!

                Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                www.TrueNutrition.com

                2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                Comment


                • #9
                  Lol! Bam!!!

                  After grad school I may finally understand your articles but let me graduate first


                  Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                  More than a few, I think. I see you mentioning the topic now and again, so I figured this might be a nice resource.







                  You're welcome!!!







                  LOL





                  "Eccentrics For Eccentrics For Dummies"



                  -Mentalflex







                  ----------



                  -S




                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Herculeus View Post
                    Lol! Bam!!!

                    After grad school I may finally understand your articles but let me graduate first
                    If you've got questions, fire away here or in the comment section below the article: http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...aining-primer/

                    -S
                    The Book Has Arrived!
                    The Book Has Arrived!

                    Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                    www.TrueNutrition.com

                    2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                    2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                    2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So Scott would you say that if you wished to do several leg sessions per week something like the sled or prowler would be a better option.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bigv View Post
                        So Scott would you say that if you wished to do several leg sessions per week something like the sled or prowler would be a better option.
                        For muscle growth?… A first option would be to simply split the volume of training over several training sessions. (I'm guessing you're trying to avoid eccentrics with the prowler or sled?…)

                        -S
                        The Book Has Arrived!
                        The Book Has Arrived!

                        Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                        www.TrueNutrition.com

                        2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                        2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                        2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes to avoid eccentric work. Ill be honest I love bodyparts multiple times but my knees don't want to play at the moment. Do you think things like the sled etc can actually build or do you feel it's more recovery only??

                          Ill be honest I've seen some scrawny cross fitters pushing serious prowler weights so it makes me wonder, however pushing or pulling for 50+ yards is surely quite significant time under tension??

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You can be strong and not muscularly large.

                            Sleds and farmers depending on the application can build up stability in the knees/hips.probably want to shoot for a good distance with medium weight for a good few sets or until it gets too difficult and becomes a conditioning sessio. Or do some heavy work with shorter distances.
                            There are no set rules or guidelines, just play around with it.
                            Just understand that going really light wont be jack shit, and weight (resistance) needs to be utilised.

                            Do you know why your knee is playing up? Often treating the symptoms rather than looking at what caused it can cause more problems down the road.
                            To steal a quote, "dont put fitness on top of bad dysfunction"

                            Just my thoughts on the matter..

                            Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Why not post something so that Homon can rip it apart

                              What are the mechanisms for hypertrophy? Metabolic stress, mechanical tension and muscular damage... now when you think about prowler pushes, you may generate some metabolic stress, but are you really going to have a lot of mechanical tension? Is the nature of the movement going to induce muscular damage to the extent that lifting a heavy load, say 80% of your 1 rep max, would bring?

                              Prowler pushes, although anaerobic, are still cardio... and the physiological response would be similar to that if running sprint intervals.

                              If you are looking to minimize eccentric work, why not add in a light, explosive session in the gym?
                              Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

                              Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

                              2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
                              2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
                              2015 Beat Cancer!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X