Whey/leucine for CKD Refeed/no carbs

[MachMood]

Ok so first I need to make this perfectly clear, this is geared towars over weight/pretty much untrained/beginner people wanting to lose weight. I've been reading some articles about people using a ketogenic diet and once or twice a week using whey and leucine to spike insulin. Usually on a CKD type diet for bodybuildimg people use carbs for depletion AND the insulin spike to keep metabolism up, thyroid production etc. Anyone have experience or thoughts about ditching the carbs and just using whey and leucine? do you think your missing out by not having carbs and a calorie surplus once or twice a week.

[Lonnie123]

If you are talking about a rank beginner who has no previous experience dieting, I dont know that I would have them jump into this kind of thing. MANY people feel like complete shit for week on a keto diet and have a very hard adjusting, not to mention ditching so many foods that have no reason to but cut out.

If it is indeed an overweight newb you want to have lose weight, I would urge you to instill in them "eat better" type of habits instead of rushing to this type of diet which should probably be reserved for a time when things need to be taken to another level.

[LG1]

Agree with Lonnie violently

[MachMood]

^ I hear ya. I was listening to a podcast where a Dr. Had a lot of his overweight, pre diabetic patients doing keto diets with weekly carb days. He said he was going to experiment with weekly whey/leucine spikes because people were yo yoing to much

[mentalflex]

Rapid surge in insulin without carbs? .... Sounds like a great way to go hypoglycemic.... In someone with experience manipulating blood sugar, yeah, possibly...but beginners? not unless they were under very close oversight

[martin_h]

Rapid surge in insulin without carbs? .... Sounds like a great way to go hypoglycemic.... In someone with experience manipulating blood sugar, yeah, possibly...but beginners? not unless they were under very close oversight

Aye. People cant be trusted.

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[martin_h]

If you are talking about a rank beginner who has no previous experience dieting, I dont know that I would have them jump into this kind of thing. MANY people feel like complete shit for week on a keto diet and have a very hard adjusting, not to mention ditching so many foods that have no reason to but cut out.

If it is indeed an overweight newb you want to have lose weight, I would urge you to instill in them "eat better" type of habits instead of rushing to this type of diet which should probably be reserved for a time when things need to be taken to another level.

Superb. Thats often the problem with noobs - straight in at the deep end. A lot of them need different stages when commiting to a healthier life, educating them along the way and then introducing them to different types of diet when they understand why they are doing it and how to do it alone.

Training the general joes n janes as I do, I have no shame admitting I sucked big time at this at first. I tried to overload them with infomation (too much) and it just left them more confused than before, so I took to making up stages of learning -ie : these are macronutrients, here is a watered down version of what they do, this is how we manipulate them.
Then later on have them try skiploading for eg when i think they have a grasp on nutrition.

A lot of people have no idea how to read a packet and see what the macros are..serious, its the calorie column or nothing!

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[MachMood]

Rapid surge in insulin without carbs? .... Sounds like a great way to go hypoglycemic.... In someone with experience manipulating blood sugar, yeah, possibly...but beginners? not unless they were under very close oversight

That's kinda the debate. Is whey/leucine enough to even cause someone to go hypo, prob not. If that's the case then that pretty much destroys the whole premise behind it. I guess the question is how much of an insulin response is actually needed

[mentalflex]

That's kinda the debate. Is whey/leucine enough to even cause someone to go hypo, prob not. If that's the case then that pretty much destroys the whole premise behind it. I guess the question is how much of an insulin response is actually needed

This is true... Until we know how much an insulin release is needed to prevent the reduction in thyroid hormones that tend to occur when on keto diet it will be very difficult to determine if this has true merit.

I do know that adding one-two weekly higher carb meals when doing a keto diet te4nds to really help prevent stalls in fat loss... but I highly doubt that a whey/leucine shake would induce an insulogenic response that 150g-200g carb meal would have.... Nonetheless, it is an interesting discusions to see if this can product the insulogenic response needed to prevent the drop in thyroid levels

[homonunculus]

I'll just pitch in a couple thoughts here.

If the "yo-yoing" this doctor is trying to avoid is weight fluctuation following a short carb-up, and his clients are still losing weight, then it sounds like he may be either trying to appease a psychological issue folks have when they're chained to scale weight. if a carb-up succeeds in loading glycogen, then that and the water should cause a bump in scale weight. Simply educating clients (patients) about this can both appease their issues and make them more knowledgeable and able to understand if / when they have weight fluctuations in the future.

Any physiologically created insulin spike from a leucine-enhanced protein source is probably not going to be an issue for most folks. If blood glucose does dip down, then glucagon will be released to encourage gluconeogenesis from the carbon skeletons of the amino acids that have just been ingested. Of course, some people do just tend towards hypoglycemia, so watching out for that makes sense.)

So, this is a different scenario compared to someone using exogenous insulin where the insulin release is unregulated and not subject to homeostatic regulation.

-S

[MachMood]

For pure fat loss in people where that is of the upmost importance do you see this as a possible alternative?