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  • More in Protein / Food Timing: EliteFTS Article

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...really-matter/

    ENJOY!!!

    -S
    The Book Has Arrived!
    The Book Has Arrived!

    Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


    www.TrueNutrition.com

    2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
    2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
    2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

  • #2
    Love your writing Mentor Stevenson.... two things... OK, I'll give you my own scenario, I train early in the AM, so I have some pre-intra and PWO carbs, and these are the majority of my carbohydrates each day. During the course of the day, my meals are are lean proteins and healthy fats, including my last meal of the day. It seems that the data from your article focuses on the advantage of late day training and carbohydrate and protein intake, with low carbs early on in the day (actually sounds a lot like a mountain dog style diet? henna or no?). Would you see any advantage of either reducing nighttime fats and adding in carbs in the last meal OR reducing carbs in the PWO window and adding in some fats there and while reducing fats at night and having carbs?

    By the way, I dug up the titan training manual and have been doing something similar to titan training, with some adjustments made to suit my training style, but I am doing the muscle rounds as prescribed and they are kicking my a$$! It is a different kind of beatdown than DC though... I feel metabolically destroyed from the short rests and boy do I love it!
    Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

    Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

    2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
    2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
    2015 Beat Cancer!

    Comment


    • #3
      Not answering the question..(leave that to the mentor)

      When I trained in the am..i would lower my carbs PWO and then have those before bed with whey and cottage cheese to make a pudding (or i blended it together to make a cheesecake drink).
      When i didnt do this and I had no carbs pre bed, it made my training lethargic in the morning..now correlation doesnt mean causation, because I didnt have time to eat a big preworkout meal due to time (and if i did it just sat there un digested...not great..even when i experimented with simple sugars and maltodextrin). Just my experience with it.


      Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by mentalflex View Post
        Love your writing Mentor Stevenson.... two things... OK, I'll give you my own scenario, I train early in the AM, so I have some pre-intra and PWO carbs, and these are the majority of my carbohydrates each day. During the course of the day, my meals are are lean proteins and healthy fats, including my last meal of the day. It seems that the data from your article focuses on the advantage of late day training and carbohydrate and protein intake, with low carbs early on in the day (actually sounds a lot like a mountain dog style diet? henna or no?). Would you see any advantage of either reducing nighttime fats and adding in carbs in the last meal OR reducing carbs in the PWO window and adding in some fats there and while reducing fats at night and having carbs?

        By the way, I dug up the titan training manual and have been doing something similar to titan training, with some adjustments made to suit my training style, but I am doing the muscle rounds as prescribed and they are kicking my a$$! It is a different kind of beatdown than DC though... I feel metabolically destroyed from the short rests and boy do I love it!
        Generally, I'd favor timing nutrition around the workout vs. putting it at night so accomplish a metabolic flexibility goal. (The metabolic flexibility possibility is is yet another reason for limiting carbs before training for those that train later in the day.)

        This all would happen in the context of goals, but the main thing to consider is whether you're providing nutrients during the night and supporting an anabolic environment. Simply replacing fats with carbs at night might mean a faster release of aminos into the blood stream, greater oxidation and a shorter elevation of aminoacidemia throughout the night, compared to eating fats.

        If your post-workout carbs are really high, you might be able to shift some of those to the last meal of the day and keep the fats in there, as well, getting the best of both worlds (insulin from carbs, prolonged absorption over the course of the night from fats). Also, true nutrition has a product called ModCarb that would fit well with this approach:

        http://truenutrition.com/p-5289-modcarb-1lb.aspx?

        -------

        As martin mentions, you can simply play around with this an see how you do. First step, like your'e suggesting is simply to change nutrient timing and see how it affects training energy, growth, body fat, etc.

        With the way you train, and your metabolism, you might have no issue adding carbs into a night-time meal without any concern for fat gain. There are a few studies (I can post if you like) showing at least that adding substantial amounts (like 65 gr in one study, if I recall correctly) did not impair glycogen replenishment post workout. If your only carbs are post-workout, your muscle cells might be very receptive to glycogen replenhisment even 12+ hr after training so a pro/fat/carb meal would replenish glycogen effectively and have the advantages I mention above.

        -S
        The Book Has Arrived!
        The Book Has Arrived!

        Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


        www.TrueNutrition.com

        2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
        2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
        2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
          Generally, I'd favor timing nutrition around the workout vs. putting it at night so accomplish a metabolic flexibility goal. (The metabolic flexibility possibility is is yet another reason for limiting carbs before training for those that train later in the day.)


          <snip...respectfully>


          With the way you train, and your metabolism, you might have no issue adding carbs into a night-time meal without any concern for fat gain. There are a few studies (I can post if you like) showing at least that adding substantial amounts (like 65 gr in one study, if I recall correctly) did not impair glycogen replenishment post workout. If your only carbs are post-workout, your muscle cells might be very receptive to glycogen replenhisment even 12+ hr after training so a pro/fat/carb meal would replenish glycogen effectively and have the advantages I mention above.

          -S
          It does seem like a very valid option to add in some carbs at night. I think I might reduce my fats slightly and add in some carbs and see how my body responds to that. If I recall, I believe we played around with something similar to that and it worked quite well.

          If you don't mind posting those studies, I could always use the reading material now that I am done with school haha

          Thanks Scott, always appreciate your advice.


          Oh, and I forgot one thing: the last sentence of the first paragraph under the "What Time is It?" heading,

          "So, the time you spend spend sleeping the night after a workout is prime time for gaining new muscle mass."

          you gotta get on the editor about that one haha
          Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

          Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

          2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
          2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
          2015 Beat Cancer!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mentalflex View Post
            It does seem like a very valid option to add in some carbs at night. I think I might reduce my fats slightly and add in some carbs and see how my body responds to that. If I recall, I believe we played around with something similar to that and it worked quite well.

            If you don't mind posting those studies, I could always use the reading material now that I am done with school haha

            Thanks Scott, always appreciate your advice.
            SUre, man.

            Here you go: (two endurance and one resistance exercise study)

            1. Roy, B.D. and M.A. Tarnopolsky, Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen resynthesis after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol (1985), 1998. 84(3): p. 890-6.
            2. Tarnopolsky, M.A., et al., Postexercise protein-carbohydrate and carbohydrate supplements increase muscle glycogen in men and women. J Appl Physiol, 1997. 83(6): p. 1877 - 83.
            3. Fox, A.K., et al., Adding fat calories to meals after exercise does not alter glucose tolerance. Journal of Applied Physiology, 2004. 97(1): p. 11-16. http://jap.physiology.org/content/97/1/11.abstract




            Oh, and I forgot one thing: the last sentence of the first paragraph under the "What Time is It?" heading,

            "So, the time you spend spend sleeping the night after a workout is prime time for gaining new muscle mass."

            you gotta get on the editor about that one haha
            I don't have any say so - but that was my error. (They've got too much to do that kind of editing I think.) (To be honest, the article had another title and I didn't even recognize it was mine when someone tagged me on Facebook initially! LOL )

            -S
            The Book Has Arrived!
            The Book Has Arrived!

            Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


            www.TrueNutrition.com

            2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
            2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
            2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

            Comment


            • #7
              Very much enjoyed the probitotic article...just brewing my own Kombucha tea

              Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                SUre, man.

                Here you go: (two endurance and one resistance exercise study)

                1. Roy, B.D. and M.A. Tarnopolsky, Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen resynthesis after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol (1985), 1998. 84(3): p. 890-6.
                2. Tarnopolsky, M.A., et al., Postexercise protein-carbohydrate and carbohydrate supplements increase muscle glycogen in men and women. J Appl Physiol, 1997. 83(6): p. 1877 - 83.
                3. Fox, A.K., et al., Adding fat calories to meals after exercise does not alter glucose tolerance. Journal of Applied Physiology, 2004. 97(1): p. 11-16. http://jap.physiology.org/content/97/1/11.abstract



                Scott, well first, thanks for sharing... Second, I obviously have not read through them yet, but seeing that adding fat to a meal PWO does not alter glucose metabolism, and since fish oil increases insulin sensitivity, I would think this would be a great time to take some extra fish oil or have some fatty fish, like salmon... What are your thoughts on that?
                Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

                Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

                2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
                2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
                2015 Beat Cancer!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by martin_h View Post
                  Very much enjoyed the probitotic article...just brewing my own Kombucha tea

                  Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2
                  Got any pics of your mother? (If you are brewing one, you'll know what I mean... LOL )

                  Originally posted by mentalflex View Post
                  Scott, well first, thanks for sharing... Second, I obviously have not read through them yet, but seeing that adding fat to a meal PWO does not alter glucose metabolism, and since fish oil increases insulin sensitivity, I would think this would be a great time to take some extra fish oil or have some fatty fish, like salmon... What are your thoughts on that?
                  The fish oil's effect may be a matter of accumulated effects on membrane fluidity and availability of the omega-3's for prostaglandin synthesis due to consumption over days and weeks before, but it's still a good source of fats. (There may be an acute effect, but i've not seen it documented.)

                  I do think that the lack of effect of fat on glycogen replenishment in those studies is because there is AMPLE carbohydrate as well as b/c it's just post-workout, so glycogen levels are low and insulin sensitivity high from the exercise per se. There are also data suggesting fatty acids impair insulin sensitivity:

                  1. Roden, M., et al., Mechanism of free fatty acid-induced insulin resistance in humans. J Clin Invest, 1996. 97(12): p. 2859-65.

                  So, my suspicion is that post-exercise is a specific instance where you can get away with the fat as long as carb intake is high enough and still not impair glycogen synthesis.

                  -S
                  The Book Has Arrived!
                  The Book Has Arrived!

                  Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                  www.TrueNutrition.com

                  2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                  2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                  2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I take 2g of fish oil PPWO :-)
                    SAVE 5-10% @ TRUENUTRITION.com Use code: LG100

                    - Success is the best revenge

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                    • #11
                      The SCOBY, no not to hand..but I will be making a thread here in few weeks if the batch works well. Got my SCOBY from ebay from an organic grower. I have to say I am enjoying the process of watchingit change (been fermenting for 3 days) startig to look like ive adopted the lemmings around the SCOBY!

                      Mental I suggest you give it a whirl..i know youll love it.

                      http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make...at-home-173858
                      Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post

                        The fish oil's effect may be a matter of accumulated effects on membrane fluidity and availability of the omega-3's for prostaglandin synthesis due to consumption over days and weeks before, but it's still a good source of fats. (There may be an acute effect, but i've not seen it documented.)

                        I do think that the lack of effect of fat on glycogen replenishment in those studies is because there is AMPLE carbohydrate as well as b/c it's just post-workout, so glycogen levels are low and insulin sensitivity high from the exercise per se. There are also data suggesting fatty acids impair insulin sensitivity:

                        1. Roden, M., et al., Mechanism of free fatty acid-induced insulin resistance in humans. J Clin Invest, 1996. 97(12): p. 2859-65.

                        So, my suspicion is that post-exercise is a specific instance where you can get away with the fat as long as carb intake is high enough and still not impair glycogen synthesis.

                        -S
                        Got it... so nothing too special about adding fats, just have some in moderation, and don't expect anything magical...And make sure to keep carbs high PWO.

                        And depending on goals at the time, potentially add in some carbs at night.

                        Cool stuff and some idea to play with moving forward. Certainly a way to sneak in some extra kcals without getting plump.

                        Thanks Scott

                        Originally posted by martin_h View Post
                        The SCOBY, no not to hand..but I will be making a thread here in few weeks if the batch works well. Got my SCOBY from ebay from an organic grower. I have to say I am enjoying the process of watchingit change (been fermenting for 3 days) startig to look like ive adopted the lemmings around the SCOBY!

                        Mental I suggest you give it a whirl..i know youll love it.

                        http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make...at-home-173858
                        Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2
                        Awesome Thanks martin! I'll have to give it a try
                        Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

                        Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

                        2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
                        2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
                        2015 Beat Cancer!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          More if an observation and what you think is going on. I always thought my self to be carb sensative. If I eat carbs for breakfast or early In the day I feel weighed down, tired, and like I don't digest the carbs. They just sit in my stomach for hours. I forced down oatmeal for years feeling like crap. Fast forward to trying carb backloading and I feel great and can eat large amounts I carbs. Even after large carb meals at night I don't feel tired, weighed down, or bloated. Also they don't give me tne feeling if sitting in my stomach for hours not being digested. I will say over the past few years my blood sugar and A1c has been creeping up so I may have an underlying problem, but even so the diffence on how I handle carbs is night and day. Do you think this is individualistic, maybe how my body works, or is there something universal going on?

                          Edit: just got my yearly physical BW TODAY, can't wait to see the results and if my fasted sugar level and A1c change after back loading a few months
                          Last edited by MachMood; 03-06-2014, 02:26 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mentalflex View Post
                            Love your writing Mentor Stevenson.... two things... OK, I'll give you my own scenario, I train early in the AM, so I have some pre-intra and PWO carbs, and these are the majority of my carbohydrates each day. During the course of the day, my meals are are lean proteins and healthy fats, including my last meal of the day. It seems that the data from your article focuses on the advantage of late day training and carbohydrate and protein intake, with low carbs early on in the day (actually sounds a lot like a mountain dog style diet? henna or no?). Would you see any advantage of either reducing nighttime fats and adding in carbs in the last meal OR reducing carbs in the PWO window and adding in some fats there and while reducing fats at night and having carbs?

                            By the way, I dug up the titan training manual and have been doing something similar to titan training, with some adjustments made to suit my training style, but I am doing the muscle rounds as prescribed and they are kicking my a$$! It is a different kind of beatdown than DC though... I feel metabolically destroyed from the short rests and boy do I love it!
                            Hey I train first thing in the Am and have been carb backloading. My main goal is recomp/fat loss but I train fasted, sip Xtend intra, then PWO 50g whey. 45 minutes later i have a soli protein meal then backload after 5. I've noticed no strength loss or lack of intensity. CBL says u can ingest 50-100g carbs PWO for muscle gain but for me the science is sketchy on how useful carbs are PWO when already using whey. Results have been great and I feel great all day. When I switch to wanting to gain I may add carbs intra/post but I'm still on the fence. I really think the benefits of skipping the carbs outweigh the negative . It performance suffers that's a different story
                            Last edited by MachMood; 03-06-2014, 02:33 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What do you look like? Post some pics, I want to see what CBL does

                              If CBL was so great, why are no top bodybuilders using it?

                              And if you've read some of the other discussions of here that Homon proceeded over, you would also know that without having an amino acid pool to spark protein synthesis, consuming just BCAAs is o terribly effective.

                              Originally posted by MachMood View Post
                              Hey I train first thing in the Am and have been carb backloading. My main goal is recomp/fat loss but I train fasted, sip Xtend intra, then PWO 50g whey. 45 minutes later i have a soli protein meal then backload after 5. I've noticed no strength loss or lack of intensity. CBL says u can ingest 50-100g carbs PWO for muscle gain but for me the science is sketchy on how useful carbs are PWO when already using whey. Results have been great and I feel great all day. When I switch to wanting to gain I may add carbs intra/post but I'm still on the fence. I really think the benefits of skipping the carbs outweigh the negative . It performance suffers that's a different story
                              Last edited by mentalflex; 03-06-2014, 02:58 PM.
                              Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

                              Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

                              2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
                              2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
                              2015 Beat Cancer!

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