Protein or EAA pre/intra

[MachMood]

So right now I am cutting and train first thing in the am fasted, I get a protein only PWO drink then carb backload at about 6pm. I am going to transition into a stage where gaining size is the #1 priority and am going to switch up my pre/intra/post nutrition . I am goin to be going from a dc type routine into a 6-8 week of GVT , then back to the low volume high frequency. So here's My question . . I will be using 1.5 scoops (75g carbs) of KARBOLOAD intra workout then have a protein shake post workout of 50g of protein. In this scenario which would be my best bet, 10g EAA in my preworkout and 10g in my intra or 25g of isolate in my pre workout and 10-15 g EAA in my intra. My main concern is if i go with the isolate in my pre will it be digested quick enough? Should I just go with EAA to ensure it's being absorbed the quickest?

[LG1]

Protein or EAA pre/intra

It will be digested and I use karboload pre intra post when training first thing in the morning

[MachMood]

Thanks , my main concern was being fasted and wanting the best way to get "usable" nutrients . So your saying 25g isolate pre, 10g EAA intra ?

[LG1]

That's what i do my man. Then some wpi post wo too

[martin_h]

Or you could just neck a 20g scoop protein powder before, not have anything intra workout and then have a postworkout meal. A lot easier and dont worry no ill effrcts will happen.. Ie you wont get smaller/weaker - if your diet is good

Edit: do you think it is optimal training fasted, only having a shake after and then waiting till 6 pm to eat? Depending on when you train fasted, thats a whole lot of time..
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[syrup]

peptopro and ciclodestine

[mentalflex]

Well isolate requires digestion... the protein peptides in Pepto pro and EAAs do not. Isolate may not be your best option intra. You want to minimize digestive activity while training.

[MachMood]

That's what I figured, which is why I was debating just 20g EAA

[mentalflex]

That's what I figured, which is why I was debating just 20g EAA

Personal preference for me, but for the cost effectiveness, I use BCAAs and EAAs intra and pre workout. I use karboload as my carb sources in both instances. I train first thing in the AM as I do better when I my stomach is not full. There were times when I did use various proteins intra and workouts would be hit or miss. Some days my stomach would cramp up and I'd have to take a few minutes before being able to get back to it, other times I was fine.

If cost is no option for you, I would go with pepto pro instead of an EAA/BCAA blend.

[homonunculus]

EAA's drive protein synthesis.

A complete protein provides the building materials for constructing the myofibrillar proteins.

If you've eaten a sizable meal with a a complete protein in the 2-3 hours before a training session, it's likely you'll be able to use those amino acids (either blood born or already inside the cells) for protein synthesis (further) stimulated by EAAs, BCAA's, or even Leucine alone you consume intra-WO.

However, If you were to just consume EAA's, the elevation of protein synthesis is somewhat transient{Churchward-Venne et al., 2012). I'm extrapolating from this study, but ideally you ensure that you have both EAAs, adequate Leucine (which you'll find in a whey or animal protein if you're taking in enough. How much hasn't been studied for me to give an answer that seems applicable to someone really training his/ her ass off, but at least 25 g and more like 50 for someone REALLY training for more than 60 min who is more than 220lb. 100g in a peri-workout supplement isn't out of line, IMO, for some folks.)

Also, you're going to have some delay (like 30min for a spike in blood levels of EAA), so breaking things down into a pre-, intra- and post-workout shake, unless you've got like an hour before training for the pre- supplement, is overkill. Higher blood levels of AA's are good, but also result in greater oxidation...

So, ideally, you've got the driver (EAAs, Leucine) and the payload (full complement of dietary AA's) so that you can direct and deliver all that's need for actually accruing new muscle. A poor quality protein (low in EAA's) is missing the *essential* components for building muscle, like not having all the bolts, screws and nuts to put together the swing set you bought your kid for Christmas. Just consuming EAA's is like delivering a set of instructions, with all the small pieces need to fit the swing set together, but without the poles and chains that make up the frame and components of the swing set. You can have these common building materials (non-essential AA's) lying around (animal studies suggest you can grow muscle without testosterone, growth hormone or any food, by scavenging protein from *other* muscles - not what we want), but for the ideal scenario is delivery of the instructions, essential nuts, bolts, etc. AND the materials in the form of a complete protein, rich in Leucine or at least some whole protein perhaps supplemented with EAA's or BCAA's.

(NOTE HERE THAT I consider "post-workout" to be the period just after training the first muscle group, so an intra-workout drink is really post-workout for the muscles trained early on.)

The BCAA's in particular are anti-catabolic in and of themselves, so those are a good choice, as folks have known for a while.

Carbohydrate lowers cortisol, raises insulin and promotes glycogen replenishment. The reduction in cortisol (during / post exercise and chronically) seems to more important than I think most folks have considered, as it greatly explains the resulting muscle growth when someone trains using an intra-wo supp. (Tarpenning, 2001, Bird et al. 2006 - several studies that year).

So, my general suggestion is to mix:

EAA
Di and Tri -petides (newer research showing enhanced insulin secretion, and even an anabolic effect)
Whole protein (isolates, easily digestive)
High GI and GI-friendly carb source
Bell's n' whistles like creatine, etc.

Put it all on one shake, drink (~15min) pre-, intra- and then save some for post- if you can't get a meal in soon (the shake would be bigger in that case). Just don't drink it all initially, and then end up with rebound hypoglycemia near the end of your workout… (Spread the shake out.)

-S

[homonunculus]

EAA's drive protein synthesis.

A complete protein provides the building materials for constructing the myofibrillar proteins.

If you've eaten a sizable meal with a a complete protein in the 2-3 hours before a training session, it's likely you'll be able to use those amino acids (either blood born or already inside the cells) for protein synthesis (further) stimulated by EAAs, BCAA's, or even Leucine alone you consume intra-WO.

However, If you were to just consume EAA's, the elevation of protein synthesis is somewhat transient{Churchward-Venne et al., 2012). I'm extrapolating from this study, but ideally you ensure that you have both EAAs, adequate Leucine (which you'll find in a whey or animal protein if you're taking in enough. How much hasn't been studied for me to give an answer that seems applicable to someone really training his/ her ass off, but at least 25 g and more like 50 for someone REALLY training for more than 60 min who is more than 220lb. 100g in a peri-workout supplement isn't out of line, IMO, for some folks.)

Also, you're going to have some delay (like 30min for a spike in blood levels of EAA), so breaking things down into a pre-, intra- and post-workout shake, unless you've got like an hour before training for the pre- supplement, is overkill. Higher blood levels of AA's are good, but also result in greater oxidation...

So, ideally, you've got the driver (EAAs, Leucine) and the payload (full complement of dietary AA's) so that you can direct and deliver all that's need for actually accruing new muscle. A poor quality protein (low in EAA's) is missing the *essential* components for building muscle, like not having all the bolts, screws and nuts to put together the swing set you bought your kid for Christmas. Just consuming EAA's is like delivering a set of instructions, with all the small pieces need to fit the swing set together, but without the poles and chains that make up the frame and components of the swing set. You can have these common building materials (non-essential AA's) lying around (animal studies suggest you can grow muscle without testosterone, growth hormone or any food, by scavenging protein from *other* muscles - not what we want), but for the ideal scenario is delivery of the instructions, essential nuts, bolts, etc. AND the materials in the form of a complete protein, rich in Leucine or at least some whole protein perhaps supplemented with EAA's or BCAA's.

(NOTE HERE THAT I consider "post-workout" to be the period just after training the first muscle group, so an intra-workout drink is really post-workout for the muscles trained early on.)

The BCAA's in particular are anti-catabolic in and of themselves, so those are a good choice, as folks have known for a while.

Carbohydrate lowers cortisol, raises insulin and promotes glycogen replenishment. The reduction in cortisol (during / post exercise and chronically) seems to more important than I think most folks have considered, as it greatly explains the resulting muscle growth when someone trains using an intra-wo supp. (Tarpenning, 2001, Bird et al. 2006 - several studies that year).

So, my general suggestion is to mix:

EAA
Di and Tri -petides (newer research showing enhanced insulin secretion, and even an anabolic effect)
Whole protein (isolates, easily digestive)
High GI and GI-friendly carb source
Bell's n' whistles like creatine, etc.

Put it all on one shake, drink (~15min) pre-, intra- and then save some for post- if you can't get a meal in soon (the shake would be bigger in that case). Just don't drink it all initially, and then end up with rebound hypoglycemia near the end of your workout… (Spread the shake out.)

-S

[mentalflex]

Scott, sorry if I missed something as I am on my phone, but in a situation where one trains first thing in the morning, how much difference, in your opinion would it make if one had EAAs and extra BCAAs as the source of amino acids pre and intra workout versus having a whole protein (whey isolate) pre workout?

[LG1]

And how about carbs pre during and post for the above scenario?

[homonunculus]

Scott, sorry if I missed something as I am on my phone, but in a situation where one trains first thing in the morning, how much difference, in your opinion would it make if one had EAAs and extra BCAAs as the source of amino acids pre and intra workout versus having a whole protein (whey isolate) pre workout?

That Chuchward-Venne paper has some nice plots showing Leu, BCAA, etc. amino acid elevation that can give you feel for this....

And how about carbs pre during and post for the above scenario?

MF and LG, I'll answer both your questions with saying that it depend on how long you train and how much you do.

Frankly, (and you see this int he Churchward-Venne Plots in Figure 1, in the cadse of only EAA + Leu or Leu vs. a whole whey,. after about 2 hr, Whey still gives elevated levels of BCAAs, Leuy, etc. and the other treatments have petered out to a fasting baseline. This manifests in protein synthesis down the line when the summed at the 3-5 hr mark. There is some delay in translation the signal and the resulting Protein synthesis.

LG, what scenario?... Are uyou asking specifically what was used in those studies? Are you asking bout dieting vs. trying to gain mass? Are you asking about a threshold of reducing cortisol (which I've not seen investigated, but it's a good question and might be something that could be teased out of the literature.)

My point here is: Ask good questions and get bad ass answers. Ask generic questions and the answers are shitty a lot of the time...

-S

[mentalflex]

So considering around training we aren't going to be going long without eating, one can spike amino acid levels via EAA and BCAAs, then while training continue the BCAA and EAA mix and then have isolate post w/o. In my reading, the EAA and BCAA would still be providing the protein synthetic response by the time you had the whey shake and the whey would continue the elevation in protein synthesis. Is that roughly what would happen?