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building a strength base before volume/hypertrophy routine?

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  • building a strength base before volume/hypertrophy routine?

    Hi Everyone

    My goals are max muscle gain and hope to one-day go for a natural pro-card. At the moment i am planing an off-season. I currently sit at around 187 pounds (84-85 kg)

    I am wondering on peoples thoughts on building a solid strength base (i.e. 300 bench, 300 squat, 400 dl for example) and following a strength based routine (i.e Starting Strength, or a PHAT routine)before moving onto a more volume based routine? If so, what sort of numbers should i aim for?

    I know that Dante and other experts (such as the late Iron Addict) recommend building a strength base (i.e. having a squat of at least 300) before starting a hypertrophy/volume based routine.

    The reason i ask is that i don't consider myself very strong (best squat is 120kg for 4), and currently have been doing a volume based routine i have made based off Big Beyond Belief (i.e. rest period b/w - 45sec to 1.5 minutes depending on the bodypart) The only program i have actually followed to a 'T' is MAX-OT in my first year or two.
    I would definitely like to achieve a 315 squat (3 plates) for a few reps in the near future

    I know this probably sounds like the typical bodybuilder overanalyser post, but i just want to ensure that i am on the right path to achieve my goals
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  • #2
    It enitrely depends on what you want to do. No program is the Golden ticket. In other words, Would you enjoy starting strength/PHAT/531? Would you enjoy building up strength primarily and be ok with lesser (note that you will still gain muscle on a strength based routine, just not as much) muscular gains?
    I think you need to consider what you want from a strength training routine, rather than just do it because Dante or Iron Addict advised it.

    My point is, a lot of people have gotten to amazing physiques without going the strength route, whereas other people have (Arnold/Franco/Ronnie/Johnnie Jackson etc)

    IF you want to do a strength related program, then go for it, don't wait around for somebody to say 'yes'. Otherwise, having a plan (periodization) of any kind and a log book will serve you well on your journey.

    You look good btw.

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    • #3
      @Martin

      Solid advice as are most of your posts. Could you tell us about your training history? For example
      ~ what training systems have you used?
      ~have you competed in any of the iron sports (BB, PL, SM)?
      ~what have achieved via training (weight loss/gain, strength gains)?

      Intense Muscle prides itself on making sure that when our members give out advice they have some real-world basis to make recommendations. ....its disappointing when we find that a member joins puts out a ton of posts and training/diet advice and turn out to have....shall we say minimal qualifications.

      Hope this doesn't offend or put you off
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      • #4
        The problem with "going for strength" is if you do not do it smartly you can literally wreck your body and then you will be forced to go for more volume and lighter weights. Part of the problem is ego lifting and strength. I see a lot of guys thinking they are strong and they end up doing what I call "bone and joint routines" where all they do is kill their joints and spine, etc. for no real muscle gain. Plus, genetics will dictate both IMO.

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        • #5
          I have been doing AGVT, it maybe worthwhile looking into if you are interested.
          SAVE 5-10% @ TRUENUTRITION.com Use code: LG100

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          • #6
            Originally posted by wannagetbig View Post
            The reason i ask is that i don't consider myself very strong (best squat is 120kg for 4), and currently have been doing a volume based routine i have made based off Big Beyond Belief (i.e. rest period b/w - 45sec to 1.5 minutes depending on the bodypart) The only program i have actually followed to a 'T' is MAX-OT in my first year or two.
            I would definitely like to achieve a 315 squat (3 plates) for a few reps in the near future
            I would think that if you put 50 lbs on your squat, your legs will be more muscular than they are now. From there you will be working at a higher baseline of strength if/when you switch to volume training, which to me is a position of greater growth. (Such as doing volume training with a % of a max of 265 vs 315). I see no down side to increasing strength, as long as you train with proper form and sound programming. You can also toggle between the two, but I would certainly invest some time in getting a stronger strength base. Plus, if you're younger (say in your 20's), time is on your side. Do it now. It won't get easier physically.
            2014 Greater Gulf States 2nd WPD Class B
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            • #7
              I always believed that you should prioritize strength. I believed that size should be a byproduct of strength and not vice-versa. HOWEVER, in looking back I wish I could have redefined what "strength" was. I always focused on a 1 rep max and I got some decent PL raw numbers as a natty (495/335/550 @175). But, I wasn't nearly as strong in the "hypertrophy" rep ranges. From a cosmetic point of view (looking bigger) I would have focused on increasing my 10-12 rep max rather than obsessing over my 1 rm. So I would say, YES get strong, but from a bb point of view, strong should be in a higher rep range than a powerlifter focuses on.
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              • #8
                Bump
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Swaminator View Post
                  I always believed that you should prioritize strength. I believed that size should be a byproduct of strength and not vice-versa. HOWEVER, in looking back I wish I could have redefined what "strength" was. I always focused on a 1 rep max and I got some decent PL raw numbers as a natty (495/335/550 @175). But, I wasn't nearly as strong in the "hypertrophy" rep ranges. From a cosmetic point of view (looking bigger) I would have focused on increasing my 10-12 rep max rather than obsessing over my 1 rm. So I would say, YES get strong, but from a bb point of view, strong should be in a higher rep range than a powerlifter focuses on.
                  glad to have read this before i went too deep into PL

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                  • #10
                    thanks for all the replies everyone.

                    What i have been currently doing is doing most of my work on my front squats/squats on the low side in reps (i.e most work in the 5-8 rep range), but including one or two sets in the 10-20 rep mark. This way i can keep the strength going up with some hypertrophy work.

                    In any case, i have always done other leg exercises (i.e. smith front squats, leg press, hack squats) with a minimum of 10 reps (normally 12-20 rep range) as personally i don't feel such exercises are productive in the lower rep ranges (and seem to put more stress on my joints).

                    I guess like in most things, if you cover all your bases (i.e. all rep ranges) you cannot go wrong.

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                    • #11
                      I use a relatively moderate volume/somewhat higher frequency routine with some 5x5 sprinkled in to get stronger on some exercises I would like to improve. Once I'm done the 5x5 ramp up sets I will drop the weight for a set or two in the 8-12 rep range. Feel like I'm getting the best of both worlds. I've always sucked at wide grip pull ups and have recently added deep squats. Progressing nicely on both

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                      • #12
                        bump
                        SAVE 5-10% @ TRUENUTRITION.com Use code: LG100

                        - Success is the best revenge

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