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  • Overtraining = myth?

    I was just wondering about John Broz' claim that overtraining does not exist. What are your thoughts? So is he saying that more is better and say... a sprinter should sprint as much as possible everyday?

    I have always feared overtraining because a huge majority always preached less is more, off days are musts, etc. so I always took caution with off days, deloads, and extra rest at the first sign of decreased performance. I thought about pro athletes training at crazy intensity and volume daily, but always assumed it was their superior genetics because that was what everyone always said. However, after reading Broz' (and now a lot of others) ideas that overtraining is a myth, I can't help but to think that most healthy adults are capable of gradually increasing their work capacity as much as the "genetic freaks."

    Some of the top crossfit competitors do ridiculous amounts of training everyday. Some, like Rich Froning (3 time champ), works out 4 times a day which includes running, heavy lifting, muscle endurance, skill movements, you name it.

    Perfect example and the most convincing for me, are my 2 buddies from my high school basketball and track team that I used to train with. We were all on the same routines and I was always the strongest. One of them is into crossfit and the other is doing circus training. Both of them train an insane amount and both of them are way stronger, faster, and bigger than I am. Obviously there are other factors such as having different life styles, but they are certainly not "genetic freaks." They both told me it was very difficult in the beginning, but got to their level by training longer, harder, and pushing through even when they were extremely sore and fatigued ("dark times"). The one in circus training workouts about 40 hours a week everyday
    except sundays.

    Just something to think about...

  • #2
    I personally think overtraining exists. I've always been a high volume type guy. My partner and I would go into the gym and absolutely kill it 5 days a week. After 8 straight weeks we were completely fatigued. We ended up going to a 3 day split with way less volume the past 6 weeks, and we are now both larger, leaner and way stronger now. We've accomplished more on that 6 week period than we have in the past 6 months.

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    • #3
      John Broz calls it "dark times" when you start to get really fatigued and your numbers/performance start to go down (this is when most people back off or start changing things), but he says this is the most crucial part and must keep plowing through it with max volume and intensity and eventually your body adapts and you start hitting PRs in a fatigued state.

      After the 8 weeks when you started to feel really fatigued, did you guys change it up, back off a bit, or anything like that? Or did you just keep plowing through the routine even when you were hurting? If so, your numbers took a dip and never climbed back up?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Sammich View Post
        ..
        :preach:

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        • #5
          Performance and numbers never suffered, they continually got better, we just felt completely beat down. After the 8 weeks, we took a week deload, then came back with the different program. Upon changing to the 3 day a week split, shoulder, chest, lat width and arm size have been dramatic in growth. Strength as well.

          I think the point of overtraining is highly individual to the person.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by jsaild2 View Post
            Performance and numbers never suffered, they continually got better, we just felt completely beat down. After the 8 weeks, we took a week deload, then came back with the different program. Upon changing to the 3 day a week split, shoulder, chest, lat width and arm size have been dramatic in growth. Strength as well.

            I think the point of overtraining is highly individual to the person.
            Big difference between overtraining and over-reaching. You aren't going to overtrain in 8 weeks and a week deload won't fix it.
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            • #7
              theres also a difference between an athlete and the layman.

              Some sprinters do alot of HIIT during the week. But people forget that this is:
              A) there full time job
              B) Nutrition dialed in 100%
              C) Trainer/team of people with them altering things all the time.

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              • #8
                if you are taking yourself to a new level of training intensity/volume, and you feel fatigued, tired, beat up, are you over trained or are you undertrained for the new level of work being done?

                if you get a job in construction, or wildlife firefighting, the first couple weeks are going to be a drag right? youll be tired, sore, worn out, but within a couple weeks of working, youll be doing the job easily and wont be nearly as worn out as before. john broz uses this analogy to demonstrate a point, you werent overtrained in that period of fatigue, but undertrained for the new stimulus you were experiencing. once you go through that period of time, the body adapts and you can accomodate the new level of training.

                that being said, there is certainly a common occurence of under recovery, in which diet, rest and possibly incorrect periodization/programming prolongs the adaptive period. if youre not doing the right things to help your body recover, its more difficult to adapt.

                furthermore, each person has a limit, a threshold, obviously you cant adapt to a stimulus infinitely, but even at the zenith of training possible for an individual, you will never be overtrained, but undertrained for that next adaptive level, which may or may not be possible to achieve. (of course certain thresholds can be extended with supplementary drug use)
                brineal
                Intense Muscle Competitor
                Last edited by brineal; 08-13-2013, 02:02 PM.
                M.S., B.S., B.A., CSCS, USAW

                "There is no substitute for strength, and no excuse for the lack of it"

                "Two pains in life: pain of hard work and pain of regret"

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                • #9
                  ^ great post brineal, never really thought of it like that before.
                  "Be gentle in what you do, firm in how you do it."
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                  • #10
                    IMO

                    Over-training is only relevant to bodybuilders (trying to pack the most ammount of muscle ever ever ever and avoiding like hell whatever may cause you to not carry the most ammount of muscle ever ever ever)

                    Go tell Klokov he can't train Oly lifts 2xday and do Crossfit and bodybuilding work on the side because of over-training and he'll laugh in your face.
                    0001Delta
                    Heavyweight Member
                    Last edited by 0001Delta; 08-13-2013, 11:25 PM.
                    "If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time." - homonunculus

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                    • #11
                      Who is the guy that said "there's no such thing as overtraining, just undereating?"
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                      • #12
                        @dakoose

                        i dont think overtraining can be attributed to any one form of training, it simply doesnt truly exist. even a bodybuilder who finds himself unable to continue making muscular gains is simply not adapting to a new stimulus.

                        dante has said on more than one occasion, that if a bodybuilder goes from a 225 squat to a 500 squat without gaining muscular size, that he has missed the boat in terms of muscular gains from that work (which is likely due to lacking nutrition - an aspect of recovery which provides a bodybuilder the material to repair and rebuild muscle). you can never truly overtrain, if a bodybuilder is seeing diminishing gains, it's because the stimulus has exceeded the body's adapted state. thats why for bodybuilders, higher intensity/volume (stimulus) requires increased recovery (food, sleep, drugs) to make it to the next level of adaptation (larger muscular size).
                        M.S., B.S., B.A., CSCS, USAW

                        "There is no substitute for strength, and no excuse for the lack of it"

                        "Two pains in life: pain of hard work and pain of regret"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dakoose View Post
                          Who is the guy that said "there's no such thing as overtraining, just undereating?"
                          Several people have said that, I don't know who's the real author, (I think it was the Barbarian Brothers).

                          - Arnold
                          - Franco
                          - Platz
                          - The Barbarian Brothers
                          - Everyone at Metroflex Long beach with a youtube account (Rich Piana, CT Fletcher, Mike Rashid, etc.)
                          "If you're ready to do DC, you're not gonna give a flying f*(k about fatigue from the previous exercise. You get under the bar and kill it, each and every time." - homonunculus

                          "Nothing better than coming to IM and seeing a Wall of Text next to that big Tricep pic." - Lonnie123

                          “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” - Homer

                          The scale doesn't show a number. When he steps on it, it simply reads: Big Mother Fucker. - Skip

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by brineal View Post
                            @dakoose

                            i dont think overtraining can be attributed to any one form of training, it simply doesnt truly exist. even a bodybuilder who finds himself unable to continue making muscular gains is simply not adapting to a new stimulus.

                            dante has said on more than one occasion, that if a bodybuilder goes from a 225 squat to a 500 squat without gaining muscular size, that he has missed the boat in terms of muscular gains from that work (which is likely due to lacking nutrition - an aspect of recovery which provides a bodybuilder the material to repair and rebuild muscle). you can never truly overtrain, if a bodybuilder is seeing diminishing gains, it's because the stimulus has exceeded the body's adapted state. thats why for bodybuilders, higher intensity/volume (stimulus) requires increased recovery (food, sleep, drugs) to make it to the next level of adaptation (larger muscular size).
                            Well said.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by brineal View Post
                              @dakoose

                              i dont think overtraining can be attributed to any one form of training, it simply doesnt truly exist. even a bodybuilder who finds himself unable to continue making muscular gains is simply not adapting to a new stimulus.

                              I disagree. If you push yourself physical limits for months on end, have external stressors, aren't sleeping well...etc. You will become over trained, it isn't something that happens in a few weeks, but many months and when it does, it will hit you...HARD. You'll feel depressed, no energy, lack of motivation, no appetitite, suppressed immune system, trouble falling asleep and waking in your sleep when you do sleep, trouble digesting, and lack of focus...

                              If you don't take cruises and give your body time to recovery over the course of a blast phase (however one may define it personally) then the potential to become overtrained is there. Will it happen to everyone, no. We each have a certain resiliency to all of those factors and some may be affected sooner than others and some may not be training hard enough to actually get overtrained.
                              mentalflex
                              ISOM Winner February 2012
                              Last edited by mentalflex; 08-14-2013, 02:31 PM.
                              Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

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