Most LBM possible naturally

[MachMood]

After homon linked some Lyle McDonald article in another read I came across an article he wrote where he and Others think 180-190 lbs of LBM is pretty much the most that can be achieved naturally . Amd this is the gentic elite. Wondering what your guys thoughts are in this?

[RageBlanket]

Most LBM possible naturally

Seems pretty conservative.

I'll add why I think so; I, personally @ 290 w/20% bf & 15% skeletal weight am ~188#. I'm HARDLY in the echelon of elite genetics. Better than average? Probably. Elite? Not hardly.

[MaxNat]

I would say that is pretty accurate. You are ALWAYS going to have a slight deviation, and variables like, height, bone structure, and difference in genetics play a part, but that is probably pretty close. Look at most of the Natty Pros (IFPA, INBA, PNBA, etc.). Most of them have pretty good genetics, range in the 5' 5" to 5' 8" height range and are about 160-195 lbs at competition weight....

[RageBlanket]

I disagree. That's a tiny sampling, and at that size it's far more conditioning than elite muscular genetics.

[MaxNat]

True, it is a small sampling, and you may have a point if you disregard body fat percentages. I guess I was thinking more on the lines of what can be achieved in regards to LBM at a lower body fat percentage. I believe Dante had posted at one time some very interesting studies on Sumo wrestlers and their LBM as compared to other athletes... however, I do not want to walk around looking like a Sumo. ;-) For guys "in shape" (5% to 10% bf) I have seen very few natties personally that would go over 190 LBM. Again, I am not saying it is not possible, but for the "average" natty, IMO, that is pretty damn close.

[RageBlanket]

To be clear-are we speaking ONLY of BBers, or all top-tier athletes?

[trucelt]

... this is me @5'9.5 176LBS
ZERO AAS
ZERO PH's
ZERO Growth, Thyroid etc

whey, creatine, glutamine, ephedrine

https://www.facebook.com/jason.roberts.505/photos#!/photo.php?fbid=1067086129010&set=a.1067036927780.2010017.1581755218&type=3&theater

and i am ABSOLUTELY not world class....

however I have done quite a few drug-tested shows and there is rarely anybody in shape over 190-195lbs..the year i did the Natural Oympia the winner was Keith Bullock and he probably 220LBS peeled BUT he was like 6'3''

[[email protected]]

After homon linked some Lyle McDonald article in another read I came across an article he wrote where he and Others think 180-190 lbs of LBM is pretty much the most that can be achieved naturally . Amd this is the gentic elite. Wondering what your guys thoughts are in this?

If this 190 is in contest condition then yeah I bet its pretty close.
There are some Wisconsin and Nebraska O lineman with more lbm at a higher bodyfat percentage, but to hang on to muscle and be low bodyfat same time... that's hard.

[RageBlanket]

If this 190 is in contest condition then yeah I bet its pretty close.
There are some Wisconsin and Nebraska O lineman with more lbm at a higher bodyfat percentage, but to hang on to muscle and be low bodyfat same time... that's hard.

I guess that's my point. If we're talking elite genetics through all sports, then the quote is nonsense. Hell I took out bone mass; if I was in "contest shape", I'd still weigh 210.

Look at guys like Adrian Peterson, LeBron James, or Terrell Owens; they're big, lean dudes. I'd say that's an example of elite genetics.

[MachMood]

Tney were saying 100% natural and this applies to everyone, basically a human limit. So if someone is 220 at 15% bodyfat he's pretty much maxed out his capability to add LBM. He says it's based off 4 highly respected coaches and they all agree(ill like the article). This was a follow up to an article he wrote about managing expectations and how many naturals base their goals on drugged athletes and its just not possible

[RageBlanket]

Most LBM possible naturally

Tney were saying 100% natural and this applies to everyone, basically a human limit. So if someone is 220 at 15% bodyfat he's pretty much maxed out his capability to add LBM. He says it's based off 4 highly respected coaches and they all agree(ill like the article). This was a follow up to an article he wrote about managing expectations and how many naturals base their goals on drugged athletes and its just not possible

Yeah man I've got to disagree 100%. Like I said, I'll use myself as an example-if I were 15% bf, I'd be around 250, I'm FAR from elite in terms of genetics, and I think I could still gain 15-20# naturally.

I was ~220 @ 15%bf in high school.

Edit to add-I'm not bragging nor saying I'm HYOOJ and awesome and have been since I was 16. I'm just using an example that I know every single detail of.

[MachMood]

^ I'm not disagreeing with you but people WAY UNDER ESTIMATE THEIR BF. me as an example posted up pics of myself before a cut. I'm 6'1 and lanky. My arms/shoulders were very lean,even vascular. I held ALL my bf in my love handles and lower abs. Everyone said 18-20%, bod pod says 28%. Not saying everyone is wrong but it seems in threads where peopel get bod pods everyone is way off. If you were to look at the best natural BB in the world( and I mean really natural) it seems to hold true. On the Otner hand this means pretty much 80% of the nfl is one something. I'm gonna find the article and post it up right now

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html

In your example,lets just say you were alil off and at 220 at 22% bf then your within the range. Have you been training steady since then, what gains have you made? Not calling you out just curious

[RageBlanket]

I've been training off & on since I was 17 (20 years), I've gained ~70 pounds in BW. If half of that was fat, it'd still put me in the 205-210# of LBM right now, and it's certainly reasonable (if not conservative) to say I've honestly gained 35# of LBM in 20 years. And I don't think I'm even close to potential, personally. I've eaten terribly, trained inefficiently and still grown stronger. With solid diet & programming I truly believe I could gain 10-15 more.

I'd say more than half of the guys I know who are natural and over 270 would be 200-210 lean.

HOWEVER, I may not be considered natural now because I'm on TRT. I've been on it for a year, so it's not a consideration in my previous body composition.

[JohnnyBravo]

Yeah man I've got to disagree 100%. Like I said, I'll use myself as an example-if I were 15% bf, I'd be around 250, I'm FAR from elite in terms of genetics, and I think I could still gain 15-20# naturally.

I was ~220 @ 15%bf in high school.

Edit to add-I'm not bragging nor saying I'm HYOOJ and awesome and have been since I was 16. I'm just using an example that I know every single detail of.

I've got to agree completely with rage. [email protected]% is about where I was at 17/18 as well. It isn't particularly tough to achieve (I certainly expended effort, but I didn't really know what I was doing)

My $.02. 1) The claim that 80% of the NFL is on something is certainly plausible--if there are players "on" something, then the other guys know, and if your job is on the line, you'd definitely think twice about using to improve your performance. For example, Adrian Peterson halved the recovery for an ACL tear, and he was explosive even in his first games back. I wouldn't doubt he used hGH to come back.

2) I think those body comp calculators are crap. Everyone has their own genetic limits, and some calculator on the internet isn't going to tell you what it is. The same way that measuring your arm, stomach and leg isn't going to give you a good bodyfat estimate. For most guys, yes, it will probably end up accurate; it has what, a 35lb range, but that doesn't mean that it is truly a limit for everyone. Tons of people will fall outside of that range, just look at how people are built. Someone with a tiny frame is going to be able to hold less LBM at a low BF% than someone who is three feet wide without ever training

[MachMood]

Good stuff man. I will also add that they say most peopel after 3 years of consistent training can add 1-3 lbs a year Of muscle. So I guess their saying 180-190lbs is most people's gentic limit after 3-5 years is consistent hard training, , but after that the progress is EXTREMELY slow and painful. I would imagine his target audience is 16-25 so he's just trying to put things in perspective. If you wanna have 200lbs of LBM, be prepared for a 20 year journey. If you see a 21 year old 225 at 8% and tells you I'm natural do what I do, be skeptical