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  • leg issues and knee pain

    hey guys,

    got some problems come up and im not 100% sure whats the cause or how i can overcome the problems. im heavy into my off season now and after a year of pain free squats...its back. not only is the horrific stabbing pain back but now when im squatting or even leg pressing all i feel is my knees and no quads!

    this years focus was the bring my quads up alittle more but im concerned because my quads hardly ever get sore plus when i squat or front squat i go ass to grass and back up but cant even feel my quads working!!

    i was thinking perhaps i must slow the rep speed down. like stupidly slow with a pause on the bottom and raise the rep range up alittle??

    i hit ss 6-10 and wm. i am a strong dude, hittin 5 and a half plate squats and nearly 5 plates per side front squats. been doing dc nearly 4 years now too and my form on squats is spot on deep as shit so its not my form. almost as if i have lost my mind to muscle connection with my quads or something??

    any thaughts on this or advice would be awesome

    Matt
    NABBA UK 2011 - Novice class 3rd Place
    NABBA BRITAIN FINALS 2012 - Novice class 3rd Place
    NABBA NORTH WEST 2014 - Mr Class 2 - 1st Place
    NABBA WORLD CHAMPS 2014 - Mr Class 2 - 10th Place
    NABBA ENGLAND 2015 - Mr Class 2 - 3rd place
    NABBA UK 2015 - Mr Class 2 - 4th place


  • #2
    Originally posted by bicep_grind View Post
    hey guys,

    got some problems come up and im not 100% sure whats the cause or how i can overcome the problems. im heavy into my off season now and after a year of pain free squats...its back. not only is the horrific stabbing pain back but now when im squatting or even leg pressing all i feel is my knees and no quads!
    Sounds like patellofemoral syndrome (PFP)

    Originally posted by bicep_grind View Post
    this years focus was the bring my quads up alittle more but im concerned because my quads hardly ever get sore plus when i squat or front squat i go ass to grass and back up but cant even feel my quads working!!

    i was thinking perhaps i must slow the rep speed down. like stupidly slow with a pause on the bottom and raise the rep range up alittle??
    What does your form look like...not talking how fast or slow, but specifically how do your knees track? If you do a standard one leg squat...stand on one leg, put your hands on your hips, and complete like a 1/2 squat, not all the way down or anything just like halfway...does your knee cave inward (do this in front of the mirror so you can see it)?

    Originally posted by bicep_grind View Post
    almost as if i have lost my mind to muscle connection with my quads or something??
    You don't need much mind/muscle connection to hit the quads...they are your only knee extensors. If you're flexing and extending the knee, they're working. Question is...is your patella tracking properly?

    Originally posted by bicep_grind View Post
    any thaughts on this or advice would be awesome
    Kinda sounds like PFP. A large Q-angle can cause excessive lateral tracking of the patella. Again, take a look at the single leg squat and see what your knee does. Also do your feet pronate or flatten out when you squat? Weakness of the hip external rotators and abductors can be part of the problem. Poor flexibility in the quads can also be a problem as well as a delayed firing of the vastus medialis oblique (VMO), and overly strong quad-to-hamstring ratios can also be involved. Also, simple anatomy can be part of it, which you can't do much about.

    To fix this improve the function of the hip abductors and external rotators with things like tube walking and lying external rotation and abduction.

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVmt_qjcJcU[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiqvDV8pzRk[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vzcJ5A5kq0[/YOUTUBE]

    Also adding in some balance and proprioception training will help to improve the firing of the muscles in the quads and help iron out coordination. Things like single leg balance, single leg reaches, balancing on dyna discs. And, finally making sure you're training the hamstrings as often and as hard as you do the quads. For every quad dominant set you're lifting do a hamstring dominant set.

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s1pvUWlmX4][/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_sV3dMFvvE[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrLqX7tQd5I[/YOUTUBE]

    Activate the VMO

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrUOEwTDbqA[/YOUTUBE]

    And, make sure you are stretching and foam rolling the quads, especially down towards the knee.

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sFdCOSKDIs[/YOUTUBE]

    Basically just do all this stuff as part of your warm up before you train on leg days and make sure you foam roll and stretch the quads every day. But, give that one leg squat a try and let me know how it goes and if in fact the knee is caving in as I'm assuming it is.
    Last edited by ; 03-03-2013, 10:13 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      I just tried those single leg exercises, I have Zero balance. I could barely do a squat.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by -AJA14- View Post
        I just tried those single leg exercises, I have Zero balance. I could barely do a squat.
        You're training may need some supplements. Sorry, I just wanted to do that lol

        And, for anyone keeping track on the occurrence of minor injuries popping up from DC training due to muscle imbalances...check one off in the column for me. :smokin: That's two smiles in one post...twice my all time output.
        Last edited by ; 03-03-2013, 11:23 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Knickerbocker24 View Post
          You're training may need some supplements. Sorry, I just wanted to do that lol

          And, for anyone keeping track on the occurrence of minor injuries popping up from DC training due to muscle imbalances...check one off in the column for me. :smokin: That's two smiles in one post...twice my all time output.
          Right on. Check mark in KB's column.

          -Have we ascertained a specific location of the pain and a medical diagnosis (as best as possible on the net)?

          -Also, do we know that if biceps grind had done any other program whatsoever, his knowledge base in terms of injury prevention would have been enough to prevent his current arthralgia (if indeed the pain is joint related)?

          -Additionally, are we certain that other progressive overload-based programs that could have brought him to this level of strength would not have resulted in the same scenario?

          ----------

          Or maybe we can just say that heavy squatting can result in knee pain, in part d/t all the factors d/t poor patellar tracking, etc?

          Actually, I don't know for sure if this is what biceps grind means, but his OP suggests he's been squatting continuously for at least a year, perhaps doing it DC style. If that's the case, that would be the longest I've ever heard of anyone being able to progress on a single exercise without a plateau (and thus switching exercises)... If not true, he's hung on to squats much longer than what DC training calls for (I've seen guys post here and had clients do the same - they feel like squatting is an absolute must)...

          Well, if someone (could be biceps grind, but maybe not) has been squatting weekly for a year, and feels like it's a must to now target the quads and progress on weight and/or reps with squats b/c it's "gotta happen" this off-season, this is when form tends to go to hell (and when an exercise would be dropped in DC). I see this all the time with DC clients and have done it myself - in an effort to keep on eeking out "progression" on a given lift, form is compromised and tendonitis, joint pain, etc., start creeping in.

          The above means its time to change exercises at he least, as well as look at whether form perturbation are due to trying to sue too much weight (and getting sloppy) and/or due to muscle weaknesses, imbalances, etc.

          So, after getting as solid a diagnosis as I can, I look into the etiology of the problem from a programmatic standpoint, as well as muscular balance, form, etc. In other words, sometimes it's as easy as switching exercises b/c the problem is rooted in trying to lift more than good form allows, and thus causing an overuse injury...

          -S
          The Book Has Arrived!
          The Book Has Arrived!

          Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


          www.TrueNutrition.com

          2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
          2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
          2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by bicep_grind View Post
            hey guys,

            got some problems come up and im not 100% sure whats the cause or how i can overcome the problems. im heavy into my off season now and after a year of pain free squats...its back. not only is the horrific stabbing pain back but now when im squatting or even leg pressing all i feel is my knees and no quads!

            this years focus was the bring my quads up alittle more but im concerned because my quads hardly ever get sore plus when i squat or front squat i go ass to grass and back up but cant even feel my quads working!!

            i was thinking perhaps i must slow the rep speed down. like stupidly slow with a pause on the bottom and raise the rep range up alittle??

            i hit ss 6-10 and wm. i am a strong dude, hittin 5 and a half plate squats and nearly 5 plates per side front squats. been doing dc nearly 4 years now too and my form on squats is spot on deep as shit so its not my form. almost as if i have lost my mind to muscle connection with my quads or something??

            any thaughts on this or advice would be awesome

            Matt
            Matt,

            Are you bouncing out of the hole?... Back getting pretty sore after squats?...

            (Got any vid's of you squatting?...)

            -S
            The Book Has Arrived!
            The Book Has Arrived!

            Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


            www.TrueNutrition.com

            2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
            2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
            2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Matt, I've recently had problems with no sensation in right leg doing squats & leg press, also back pain, went as far as muscle wastage in right leg. It was an impinged nerve with me, I definitely recommend a chiropractor as a port of call. I left it 4wks before I went, & I feel muscle wastage wouldn't have happened if I would have gone sooner
              Linny x


              NABBA Miss World Italy 2013 - 3rd
              NABBA Miss Universe 2012 - 1st
              NABBA World Brazil 2011 - 5th
              NABBA Miss Britain Champion 2011-1st
              NABBA Universe 2010 Trained Figure- 5th
              NABBA UK 2010 Trained Figure-1st
              NABBA England 2010 Trained Figure-2nd

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks ppl...ok not being rude but my knees do not track inwards...thats fricken retarded!!. My knees follow my feet which is slightly outwards!!

                And my back feels nothing...its made of concrete im sure!!

                Homon- iv just rotated back to my free weight squats now this last 2 blasts. Iv been doing hacks, smith squats...etc prior. I know when my body has platau'd but im still hitting the rep range. My form is deeper than its ever been which felt brilliant last blast but now im near those super heavy squats it just kills my knees.

                I possibly do bounce from the hole alittle. I do wear wraps on the heavy too. Even warm ups cause extreme pain.

                Iv been here before 2 year ago perhaps and dante gave me a warm up and new rep range. Since my knees got healthy again i kept the warm up but went back to the old rep range which felt amazing until now.

                Im on the 2 way and at 265lbs currently which is my heaviest iv been right now.

                I didn't want to drop squats because i haven't failed them yet but i want to know why i don't feel my quads engaging.

                Last couple of times i failed the wm too but mostly because of the pain.

                Matt
                Last edited by bicep_grind; 03-04-2013, 04:40 AM.
                NABBA UK 2011 - Novice class 3rd Place
                NABBA BRITAIN FINALS 2012 - Novice class 3rd Place
                NABBA NORTH WEST 2014 - Mr Class 2 - 1st Place
                NABBA WORLD CHAMPS 2014 - Mr Class 2 - 10th Place
                NABBA ENGLAND 2015 - Mr Class 2 - 3rd place
                NABBA UK 2015 - Mr Class 2 - 4th place

                Comment


                • #9
                  Linny...that sounds like a nightmare btw!! Is it all mended now?

                  Matt
                  NABBA UK 2011 - Novice class 3rd Place
                  NABBA BRITAIN FINALS 2012 - Novice class 3rd Place
                  NABBA NORTH WEST 2014 - Mr Class 2 - 1st Place
                  NABBA WORLD CHAMPS 2014 - Mr Class 2 - 10th Place
                  NABBA ENGLAND 2015 - Mr Class 2 - 3rd place
                  NABBA UK 2015 - Mr Class 2 - 4th place

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bicep_grind View Post
                    Thanks ppl...ok not being rude but my knees do not track inwards...thats fricken retarded!!. My knees follow my feet which is slightly outwards!!
                    Matt, did you try the single leg squat assessment? Do you do more volume of quad dominant work to hamstring dominant work? Do you do anything to work on hip abduction or external rotation strength? Do you do anything to work on balance and proprioception? Do you do anything to maintain tissue quality and flexibility of the quads? If the answer to some of these questions is no you may not wish to dismiss my suggestion so quickly. I'm here to help you pal. I know injury prevention seems outside the scope of bodybuilding. I get it...my suggestions are not on the radar for most bb'ers. You've got a laser-like focus on getting big and getting strong...I've been there. But, if you're ignoring joint balance it's only a matter of time before you can't train the way you want...that may be now. Your condition is not un-common. I'm not just coming up with this stuff off the top of my head.
                    Last edited by ; 03-04-2013, 03:48 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bicep_grind View Post
                      Linny...that sounds like a nightmare btw!! Is it all mended now?

                      Matt
                      Nope lol, rebuilding quad & ham, back still very tender.
                      Hope you get sorted soon chuckle chops x


                      NABBA Miss World Italy 2013 - 3rd
                      NABBA Miss Universe 2012 - 1st
                      NABBA World Brazil 2011 - 5th
                      NABBA Miss Britain Champion 2011-1st
                      NABBA Universe 2010 Trained Figure- 5th
                      NABBA UK 2010 Trained Figure-1st
                      NABBA England 2010 Trained Figure-2nd

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                        Right on. Check mark in KB's column.
                        It's like I just got an A on a paper!

                        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                        -Have we ascertained a specific location of the pain and a medical diagnosis (as best as possible on the net)?
                        Nope, playing the odds here.

                        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                        -Also, do we know that if biceps grind had done any other program whatsoever, his knowledge base in terms of injury prevention would have been enough to prevent his current arthralgia (if indeed the pain is joint related)?
                        Nope, but his working to build up the quads lately suggests he's been doing an imbalance training style (overly quad-dominant) in an effort to bring up a body part which CAN cause imbalance as well as some poor tissue quality and lack of flexibility...not necessarily but again playing the odds here as this stuff is not on most bb'ers radar which is becoming evident by the way in which he quickly dismissed by view (which is fine & doesn't hurt my feelings but is indicative of a narrow view of training).

                        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                        -Additionally, are we certain that other progressive overload-based programs that could have brought him to this level of strength would not have resulted in the same scenario?
                        If he progressed his hamstrings to the same degree and his hip external rotation and abduction strength, maintained tissue quality and flexibility of the quads, and maintained his balance and proprioception all while progressively overloading he'd probably be better off though. The overload probably isn't the problem it's a lack of attention to the other things I mentioned. Would another program have provided the same level of development?...I believe you can develop a better one (if he's ignoring the things I think he is) because they are becoming a limiting factor to his strength, which will limit his ability to hypertorphy, and will also limit his ability to train injury free. Further to look at it from another point of view, assuming this is the best method for development (purely for arguments sake) is pain and dysfunction a good trade off for a little extra development? To me, no, but that's a philosophical decision and one we each make for ourselves.

                        ----------

                        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                        Or maybe we can just say that heavy squatting can result in knee pain, in part d/t all the factors d/t poor patellar tracking, etc?
                        Can it?...sure. Should it in a balanced program (that incorporates my suggestions)?...probably not.

                        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                        Actually, I don't know for sure if this is what biceps grind means, but his OP suggests he's been squatting continuously for at least a year, perhaps doing it DC style. If that's the case, that would be the longest I've ever heard of anyone being able to progress on a single exercise without a plateau (and thus switching exercises)... If not true, he's hung on to squats much longer than what DC training calls for (I've seen guys post here and had clients do the same - they feel like squatting is an absolute must)...
                        Gotcha, basically not following DC really. Well, I don't want to make this a DC argument...I know I started it, but lets focus on helping Matt...if he'll remain open minded to my suggestion.

                        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                        Well, if someone (could be biceps grind, but maybe not) has been squatting weekly for a year, and feels like it's a must to now target the quads and progress on weight and/or reps with squats b/c it's "gotta happen" this off-season, this is when form tends to go to hell (and when an exercise would be dropped in DC). I see this all the time with DC clients and have done it myself - in an effort to keep on eeking out "progression" on a given lift, form is compromised and tendonitis, joint pain, etc., start creeping in.
                        I can see that.

                        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                        The above means its time to change exercises at he least, as well as look at whether form perturbation are due to trying to sue too much weight (and getting sloppy) and/or due to muscle weaknesses, imbalances, etc.
                        Agreed

                        Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
                        So, after getting as solid a diagnosis as I can, I look into the etiology of the problem from a programmatic standpoint, as well as muscular balance, form, etc. In other words, sometimes it's as easy as switching exercises b/c the problem is rooted in trying to lift more than good form allows, and thus causing an overuse injury...
                        While I agree with changing the exercise that doesn't get at the root of the problem IMO as I believe he's mentioned this pattern of pain before. He may have an overuse injury, but that is only a part of the injury process. A synergistic dominance can also be going on, inhibition of needed musculature around the hip, etc. You can remove the exercise and maybe the pain will temporarily go away, but will it come back later? Have we addressed the potential imbalance? Why not take a more proactive approach to improve his chances of not getting this again and work on some of the things I suggested like hip abduction strength, hip external rotation strength, quad flexibility, an imbalance in quads-to-hamstring strength, and a lack of balance, proprioception, and motor control? If these have been ignored (and the single leg squat assessment shows knee adduction/internal rotation) then that seems like a good place to start.
                        Last edited by ; 03-04-2013, 03:55 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hey ppl, thanks for the posts.

                          Knickerbocker24 - i wasnt trying to offend you or anything but im a pretty seasoned squatter already, but i seem to have lost my mind-muscle connection with my quads whilst squatting for some reason and i want to know why.

                          ok i dont believe i have an imbalance with my hams to quads, their both pretty strong.

                          i hit dc training, and have done for 17 blasts!!! and once i hit that time to remove the exercise...i take it out and switch it for something new to get strong on. iv just rotated back to barbell front and back squats after 2 years of not doing them. i was doing box squats, various machines and smyth machine versions.

                          i blast until im burnt out...usually around the 8-10 week mark and i cruise for 2 weeks.

                          i think something was mentioned before about this could be a knee overuse injury??? well thats what i think.

                          Knickerbocker24 - i tried the one leg squat and my knee followed my toe and it fucking hurt my knee!!! haha
                          i thought your knees go inwards on squat/press movements on the positive part of the rep when you have a weakness on the inner thigh...which i dont bro, they goddamn rub together 24/7.

                          im curious how im able to squat all this weight though and not really hit my quads/glutes or hams and just hammer my knee's??
                          its hit and miss if my legs will get sore or not and its bugging me since i need to get them growing again.

                          about 2 years back i had this same problem but my squat form was not as deep "in the hole" as they are now...my knees were real bad back then. i switched to Dante higher rep and extra set suggestions which eventually cured me and now im back here again.

                          perhaps its just a matter of being near plateau of my blast, being much heavier and combining front with back squats...all of which have reached pretty sick weight.

                          i was wondering if stupidly slow negatives and a pause will make my quads start to fire??

                          i warm up my hips and knees with deep high rep leg presses prior to any squatting as suggested by Dante.

                          iv been training 8 years and competing 6 if that matters???
                          NABBA UK 2011 - Novice class 3rd Place
                          NABBA BRITAIN FINALS 2012 - Novice class 3rd Place
                          NABBA NORTH WEST 2014 - Mr Class 2 - 1st Place
                          NABBA WORLD CHAMPS 2014 - Mr Class 2 - 10th Place
                          NABBA ENGLAND 2015 - Mr Class 2 - 3rd place
                          NABBA UK 2015 - Mr Class 2 - 4th place

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lin1 View Post
                            Nope lol, rebuilding quad & ham, back still very tender.
                            Hope you get sorted soon chuckle chops x
                            haha chuckle chops??? bludy fat chops at the minute lol!!

                            was you gunning for the worlds Linny??

                            Matt
                            NABBA UK 2011 - Novice class 3rd Place
                            NABBA BRITAIN FINALS 2012 - Novice class 3rd Place
                            NABBA NORTH WEST 2014 - Mr Class 2 - 1st Place
                            NABBA WORLD CHAMPS 2014 - Mr Class 2 - 10th Place
                            NABBA ENGLAND 2015 - Mr Class 2 - 3rd place
                            NABBA UK 2015 - Mr Class 2 - 4th place

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bicep_grind View Post

                              And my back feels nothing...its made of concrete im sure!!

                              Homon- iv just rotated back to my free weight squats now this last 2 blasts. Iv been doing hacks, smith squats...etc prior. I know when my body has platau'd but im still hitting the rep range. My form is deeper than its ever been which felt brilliant last blast but now im near those super heavy squats it just kills my knees.

                              I possibly do bounce from the hole alittle. I do wear wraps on the heavy too. Even warm ups cause extreme pain.

                              Iv been here before 2 year ago perhaps and dante gave me a warm up and new rep range. Since my knees got healthy again i kept the warm up but went back to the old rep range which felt amazing until now.

                              Im on the 2 way and at 265lbs currently which is my heaviest iv been right now.

                              I didn't want to drop squats because i haven't failed them yet but i want to know why i don't feel my quads engaging.

                              Last couple of times i failed the wm too but mostly because of the pain.

                              Matt
                              Hey Bud,

                              Well, I think you have an answer there (see you above comment wrt Dantes previous suggestion that worked). I would try to work through this with you but as much as I hate to say it, I have a feeling, that with with KB and I both commenting (to you and back and forth), it's gonna get pretty confusing with the two of use bantering about theoretical stuff when you just want to bottom line.

                              -S
                              The Book Has Arrived!
                              The Book Has Arrived!

                              Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                              www.TrueNutrition.com

                              2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                              2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                              2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

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