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  • Musclemag.com Article - Anti-inflammatory = Anti-Hypertrophy?...

    http://www.musclemag.com/nutrition-s...i-hypertrophy/

    Enjoy!!!

    -S
    The Book Has Arrived!
    The Book Has Arrived!

    Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


    www.TrueNutrition.com

    2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
    2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
    2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

  • #2
    Great stuff, as always Scott!

    So, for the most part, NSAIDs should be avoided as much as possible due to the inhibitory effects on muscle protein turnover as long term effects on tendons' abilty to adapt to the stress we put on them.

    Now for the study you referenced where older UNTRAINED individuals used NSAIDs every day for 3 months they experienced muscle growth... I am trying to sort this out in my head. Is this because these individuals were not placing the stress of training on their bodies and breaking down muscle fibers requiring increased protein synthesis for the repair of those fibers, which NSAIDs would hinder?

    Also, is there a particular OTC NSAID that has less inhinitory effects on muscle protein turnover?

    Personal experience tells me that Aleve (Naproxen) is MUCH easier on my stomach than Acetaminophen. Is this generally the case for most individuals?
    Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

    Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

    2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
    2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
    2015 Beat Cancer!

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks for the great read Scott,

      I have heard before about the Ibuprofen helping with muscle gains and to take one after a workout, but never heard about the tendon part so I never worried about it like now when my back hurts.

      Does it weaken them or they just don't get stronger while the muscles do?


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by mentalflex View Post
        Great stuff, as always Scott!

        Thanks!

        So, for the most part, NSAIDs should be avoided as much as possible due to the inhibitory effects on muscle protein turnover as long term effects on tendons' abilty to adapt to the stress we put on them.
        From the article:

        In some cases, NSAIDs might even be helpful to prevent overstimulation and overtraining. Anecdotally (and I don’t recommend this by the way), I’ve talked to powerlifters and bodybuilders (of the older and crazier variety mostly) who would take NSAIDs so they could train harder and longer, but still “get away with it.” More time under the bar, with less debilitating joint and muscle pain translates, they believe, into greater strength gains.

        Now for the study you referenced where older UNTRAINED individuals used NSAIDs every day for 3 months they experiencedADD GREATER VS> PLACEBO muscle growth... I am trying to sort this out in my head. Is this because these individuals were not placing the stress of training on their bodies and breaking down muscle fibers requiring increased protein synthesis for the repair of those fibers, which NSAIDs would hinder?
        That wouldn't make sense: Less stimulus plus inhibited protein turnver would mean leas growth.

        From the article (related to said article):

        By reducing pain and soreness, NSAIDs might let you train harder [24] and thus make better gains. On the other hand, in some circumstances, NSAIDs could adjust inflammation downward to optimize an otherwise excessive training protocol [25].

        Also, is there a particular OTC NSAID that has less inhinitory effects on muscle protein turnover?
        From the article ("Drug store" means OTC):

        Celebrex (COX-2 specific) reduces muscle soreness, but does not reduce post-exercise muscle protein turnover [21] or damage [22], unlike your typical drug store NSAIDs [11, 12].

        You can reduce the dose to reduce inhibitory effects on protein turnover.

        Personal experience tells me that Aleve (Naproxen) is MUCH easier on my stomach than Acetaminophen. Is this generally the case for most individuals?
        Actually, no, but that's just going from what I've read, not clinical or coaching experience. (Yes, you're a freak. )

        -S
        The Book Has Arrived!
        The Book Has Arrived!

        Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


        www.TrueNutrition.com

        2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
        2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
        2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by homonunculus View Post

          I bolded your response to my question (you know, a respect thing )

          Me: So, for the most part, NSAIDs should be avoided as much as possible due to the inhibitory effects on muscle protein turnover as long term effects on tendons' abilty to adapt to the stress we put on them.



          From the article:

          In some cases, NSAIDs might even be helpful to prevent overstimulation and overtraining. Anecdotally (and I don’t recommend this by the way), I’ve talked to powerlifters and bodybuilders (of the older and crazier variety mostly) who would take NSAIDs so they could train harder and longer, but still “get away with it.” More time under the bar, with less debilitating joint and muscle pain translates, they believe, into greater strength gains.
          OK, so the effect on protein turnover is insignificant? Or is not supported by enough evidence? ....Oh, I see below, reduced dose = reduced effect on reduction in protein synthesis, so the positive effects outweigh the negative.

          From your article:

          NSAIDs do indeed impair muscle growth [15-17], and in particular, it’s the inhibition of the COX-2 isoform that’s the culprit [15-21]. However, the opposite is true in people: Celebrex (COX-2 specific) reduces muscle soreness, but does not reduce post-exercise muscle protein turnover [21] or damage [22], unlike your typical drug store NSAIDs [11, 12]. But the story is not that simple. A recent study found that taking good old acetaminophen or ibuprofen, daily over 3 months of weight training, actually increased muscle growth and strength gains in untrained older folks [23].

          But what I am now reading into that you state after this is that the ability to train harder and reduction in inflammation yields positive effects for muscle. I think I got it now

          Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
          That wouldn't make sense: Less stimulus plus inhibited protein turnver would mean leas growth.

          From the article (related to said article):

          By reducing pain and soreness, NSAIDs might let you train harder [24] and thus make better gains. On the other hand, in some circumstances, NSAIDs could adjust inflammation downward to optimize an otherwise excessive training protocol [25].
          As I hit at above, now I think I understand it based on this


          Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
          From the article ("Drug store" means OTC):

          Celebrex (COX-2 specific) reduces muscle soreness, but does not reduce post-exercise muscle protein turnover [21] or damage [22], unlike your typical drug store NSAIDs [11, 12].

          You can reduce the dose to reduce inhibitory effects on protein turnover.
          AMEN! Too much is never a good thing. I see, I see...


          Originally posted by homonunculus View Post
          Actually, no, but that's just going from what I've read, not clinical or coaching experience. (Yes, you're a freak. )

          -S
          I absolutely do not disagree! I'd be be one hell of a case study lol
          Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

          Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

          2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
          2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
          2015 Beat Cancer!

          Comment


          • #6
            Great article, Scott.

            It's certainly a complex issue, and I think you've highlighted this pretty well.

            From this data and other things I've read, fish oil would also serve as a great alternative to typical NSAIDs if you didn't want to go for Celebrex as it is a COX-2 inhibitor as well.

            Relevant to Mental's and your question on the positive effects of ibuprofen on training, here's some in-vitro data that may help shed some light: http://ergo-log.com/testosteroneibuprofen.html

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Big R View Post
              Great article, Scott.

              It's certainly a complex issue, and I think you've highlighted this pretty well.

              From this data and other things I've read, fish oil would also serve as a great alternative to typical NSAIDs if you didn't want to go for Celebrex as it is a COX-2 inhibitor as well.

              Relevant to Mental's and your question on the positive effects of ibuprofen on training, here's some in-vitro data that may help shed some light: http://ergo-log.com/testosteroneibuprofen.html
              Big R, in a quick search, I found this revelvant to what you stated about Fish oil serving as an alternative to NSADs.

              Title: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) as an anti-inflammatory: an alternative to nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs for discogenic pain.

              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16531187

              and http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0404085719.htm

              I know more research has been done on this, but there is some supporting evidence for using Fish oil verus NSAIDs.

              Thanks for that link. I'd be interested in seeing what furher research in that line of study provides.
              Be true to yourself and fuel your body with nothing less the highest quality supplements. Only available at TrueNutrition.com Use discount code: KSP945 to save 5% on your order!

              Stickies...just read the damn stickies...

              2014 Xcalibur Cup Bantam Open - 1st
              2014 Tracey Greenwood Classic Bantam Open - 1st
              2015 Beat Cancer!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DirtyJohnson View Post
                Thanks for the great read Scott,

                I have heard before about the Ibuprofen helping with muscle gains and to take one after a workout, but never heard about the tendon part so I never worried about it like now when my back hurts.

                Does it weaken them or they just don't get stronger while the muscles do?

                Sorry - I missed this before, man.

                Here ya go:

                Carroll, C. C., J. M. Dickinson, et al. (2011). "Influence of acetaminophen and ibuprofen on in vivo patellar tendon adaptations to knee extensor resistance exercise in older adults." Journal of applied physiology 111(2): 508-515.
                Millions of older individuals consume acetaminophen or ibuprofen daily and these same individuals are encouraged to participate in resistance training. Several in vitro studies suggest that cyclooxygenase-inhibiting drugs can alter tendon metabolism and may influence adaptations to resistance training. Thirty-six individuals were randomly assigned to a placebo (67 +/- 2 yr old), acetaminophen (64 +/- 1 yr old; 4,000 mg/day), or ibuprofen (64 +/- 1 yr old; 1,200 mg/day) group in a double-blind manner and completed 12 wk of knee extensor resistance training. Before and after training in vivo patellar tendon properties were assessed with MRI [cross-sectional area (CSA) and signal intensity] and ultrasonography of patellar tendon deformation coupled with force measurements to obtain stiffness, modulus, stress, and strain. Mean patellar tendon CSA was unchanged (P > 0.05) with training in the placebo group, and this response was not influenced with ibuprofen consumption. Mean tendon CSA increased with training in the acetaminophen group (3%, P < 0.05), primarily due to increases in the mid (7%, P < 0.05) and distal (8%, P < 0.05) tendon regions. Correspondingly, tendon signal intensity increased with training in the acetaminophen group at the mid (13%, P < 0.05) and distal (15%, P = 0.07) regions. When normalized to pretraining force levels, patellar tendon deformation and strain decreased 11% (P < 0.05) and stiffness, modulus, and stress were unchanged (P > 0.05) with training in the placebo group. These responses were generally uninfluenced by ibuprofen consumption. In the acetaminophen group, tendon deformation and strain increased 20% (P < 0.05) and stiffness (-17%, P < 0.05) and modulus (-20%, P < 0.05) decreased with training. These data suggest that 3 mo of knee extensor resistance training in older adults induces modest changes in the mechanical properties of the patellar tendon. Over-the-counter doses of acetaminophen, but not ibuprofen, have a strong influence on tendon mechanical and material property adaptations to resistance training. These findings add to a growing body of evidence that acetaminophen has profound effects on peripheral tissues in humans.



                Originally posted by Big R View Post
                Great article, Scott.

                It's certainly a complex issue, and I think you've highlighted this pretty well.

                From this data and other things I've read, fish oil would also serve as a great alternative to typical NSAIDs if you didn't want to go for Celebrex as it is a COX-2 inhibitor as well.

                Relevant to Mental's and your question on the positive effects of ibuprofen on training, here's some in-vitro data that may help shed some light: http://ergo-log.com/testosteroneibuprofen.html
                Ergo-log is great. I'll take a deeper look at that ASAP, but it's yet another set of clues to explain why those older folks did better. (I love clues and need to get on that site more.)

                Funny b/c that's GREAT info. but way too sciencey for the audience that MM would like me to appeal to, unfortunately. (I'm pushing past the limits as is!)

                -S
                The Book Has Arrived!
                The Book Has Arrived!

                Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                www.TrueNutrition.com

                2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                Comment


                • #9
                  NSAIDs are pure evil, to me. Almost killed me.
                  Save 5% off your entire order at TrueProtein.com by using discount code LYP800; 10% if you order 16 lbs or more!

                  For a protein that can be used anytime, try TeamSkip Blend

                  You will need a scoop if you don’t have one: Measuring Scoops

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Wow. I have been taking a 'baby aspirin' (81mg) every day.

                    Read that a lot of guys take one a day, along with fish oil to help maintain a healthy lipid profile.

                    Let's face it ... eating like a BB'er trying to pack on mass, and some of the supplements we take dont actually make us 'heart healthy'.

                    Any of you guys follow the baby aspirin '1 per day' protocol for heart health?

                    Any body think that small amount would actually hinder your gains?
                    I train Dogg Crapp. When not training DC ... sometimes I train arms 3x to 5x per week. Sometimes I train 'modified dogg crapp' which includes an 'arms only' day.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Wow, here's another article published on the same topic. How timely! http://www.ironmagazine.com/2012/the...e-in-athletes/

                      The main point in the article is very important to elucidating the role inflammation on performance. First, there are different kinds of inflammation, with systemic inflammation being the obvious "bad guy," which is different from local inflammation brought on by weight lifting. Second, the same players (cells, proteins, hormones, etc) that mediate the primary inflammatory process also are the players that usher in the subsequent recovery process, which is pro-anabolic. However, it's highly questionable whether using ibuprofen actually inhibits gains as studies measuring actual muscle accretion suggest no interference in gains. The bottom line is that the inflammatory process is still very complicated, the same point Scott was trying to drive home.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DaveEboy View Post
                        Wow. I have been taking a 'baby aspirin' (81mg) every day.

                        Read that a lot of guys take one a day, along with fish oil to help maintain a healthy lipid profile.

                        Let's face it ... eating like a BB'er trying to pack on mass, and some of the supplements we take dont actually make us 'heart healthy'.

                        Any of you guys follow the baby aspirin '1 per day' protocol for heart health?

                        Any body think that small amount would actually hinder your gains?
                        I highly doubt it.

                        Originally posted by Big R View Post
                        Wow, here's another article published on the same topic. How timely! http://www.ironmagazine.com/2012/the...e-in-athletes/

                        The main point in the article is very important to elucidating the role inflammation on performance. First, there are different kinds of inflammation, with systemic inflammation being the obvious "bad guy," which is different from local inflammation brought on by weight lifting. Second, the same players (cells, proteins, hormones, etc) that mediate the primary inflammatory process also are the players that usher in the subsequent recovery process, which is pro-anabolic. However, it's highly questionable whether using ibuprofen actually inhibits gains as studies measuring actual muscle accretion suggest no interference in gains. The bottom line is that the inflammatory process is still very complicated, the same point Scott was trying to drive home.
                        Nice article! Covers some things I've covered in other (upcoming articles) and was "planning" in a follow-up (long story).

                        -S
                        The Book Has Arrived!
                        The Book Has Arrived!

                        Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, used up, worn out, and shouting, "Holy #$&^%$^... What a ride!!!"


                        www.TrueNutrition.com

                        2012 NPC Master's Nationals HW 5th. Mid-USA HW & Overall
                        2010 NPC Jr. USA HW 4th, Pacific USA Heavy 2nd
                        2009 NPC Mr. Arizona HW & Overall, Jr. Nationals HW 16th, Smoked at USA's

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DaveEboy View Post
                          Wow. I have been taking a 'baby aspirin' (81mg) every day.

                          Read that a lot of guys take one a day, along with fish oil to help maintain a healthy lipid profile.

                          Let's face it ... eating like a BB'er trying to pack on mass, and some of the supplements we take dont actually make us 'heart healthy'.

                          Any of you guys follow the baby aspirin '1 per day' protocol for heart health?

                          Any body think that small amount would actually hinder your gains?
                          I take the aspirin and so does Steel I think...
                          SAVE 5-10% @ TRUENUTRITION.com Use code: LG100

                          - Success is the best revenge

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I read once that gear users should be using fish oil and taking low dose aspirin daily.

                            Read that it makes a huge difference in the over all health of a gear user.

                            Which begs another question. Lets just say anti inflammatory's do inhibit growth.

                            That 'may' be detrimental to a natural athlete. But for a gear user, I seriously doubt an aspirin, motrin, or any other pain killer will make squat of difference one way or another.

                            And in case anybody reading this thread does not know this.

                            NEVER NEVER EVER TAKE TYLENOL OR GENERIC EQUIVALENT.

                            I am shocked still at how many people do not realize how Tylenol totally trashes your LIVER.

                            Funny how some people will never take a 'drink' because it is so 'unhealthy' but the same people will swallow down a Tylenol every afternoon when they get a tiny little headache.

                            Guys ... Tylenol (or acetaminophen) will freakin' trash your liver.
                            I train Dogg Crapp. When not training DC ... sometimes I train arms 3x to 5x per week. Sometimes I train 'modified dogg crapp' which includes an 'arms only' day.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DaveEboy View Post
                              I read once that gear users should be using fish oil and taking low dose aspirin daily.

                              Read that it makes a huge difference in the over all health of a gear user.

                              Which begs another question. Lets just say anti inflammatory's do inhibit growth.

                              That 'may' be detrimental to a natural athlete. But for a gear user, I seriously doubt an aspirin, motrin, or any other pain killer will make squat of difference one way or another.

                              And in case anybody reading this thread does not know this.

                              NEVER NEVER EVER TAKE TYLENOL OR GENERIC EQUIVALENT.

                              I am shocked still at how many people do not realize how Tylenol totally trashes your LIVER.

                              Funny how some people will never take a 'drink' because it is so 'unhealthy' but the same people will swallow down a Tylenol every afternoon when they get a tiny little headache.

                              Guys ... Tylenol (or acetaminophen) will freakin' trash your liver.
                              If you read up earlier, it's not so clear that NSAIDs inhibit real gains all that much. While they do interfere with certain signaling pathways associated with anabolism, a couple of studies found that net lbm gains do not differ between groups not using and groups using ibuprofen.

                              Fish oil, on the other hand, has been shown to aid in increasing lean muscle gains (Clin Sci (Lond). 2011 Sep;121(6):267-78.). So everyone can benefit from taking fish oil.

                              Comment

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