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when does it become a 2nd or 3rd set??

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  • when does it become a 2nd or 3rd set??

    This is not about videos just posted here but instead about videos posted on line in general. When doing a drop set, rest pause set or super, tri or giant set.... How much time in between do you allow before they become separate sets to you? I OFTEN see drop, super, tri and REAL often rest pause sets where people are resting 30-45- even over a min between drops, pauses or exs and to ME PERSONALLY I consider 30 seconds to be the cut off. If you rest 30 or more seconds between sets to me it becomes a different set. When I am in a groove and the gym is empty I will often rest a minute or less between every ex my whole work out (after I'm warm)... Does that mean my workout is one long "giant set"? I often see people talk about rest pause sets and they will say something like
    "I went 11-9-6 on my rest pause" and I am always thinking that they either never hit failure OR they rested over a minute between "pauses". Hell if I did just say 340 on the bench for 11....even after a 2 minute rest I would be hard pressed to get 7-8 on a second set. This is the reason why I never understood why when people do rest pause they count "total reps" and not just reps from the first "set". When I train rest pause I only use the first set as a guide... If I got stronger on THAT set then I progressed. It just seems to easy to just take a cpl more seconds on your rest periods and get maybe an extra rep or two overall and consider that "getting stronger".
    I am not telling anyone else how to train or how long to rest....I'm just wondering how long it has to be for anyone else before they consider it to be a different set all together. I am also not claiming it would really make a difference as far as growth is concerned cause I doubt it would.... May be more accurate when it comes to tracking progress or intensity though.
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  • #2
    I second this. When I get say 10 on my first set to failure, take 10-15 breaths and go for number two, I always get between 3 and 4, and then 2-3 on the last one. Seeing numbers like 10-7-5 makes me wonder wtf they are doing. I don't know if some people have faster ATP/oxygen metabolism or whatever, but it doesn't make sense based on my experience.

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    • #3
      I always thought it was just because they haven't really gone balls to the wall/not getting intense enough.
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      • #4
        I've seen people post videos doing R/P where they're resting a minute plus. Obviously it's just semantics, people can call it whatever they want, but resting a minute or more is 3 sets with low rest periods.

        I remember reading an old Dr Ken Leistner article on cyberpump.com years ago (like 1998 lol) where he said he had his trainees do "50% sets" which was like, rep out 12 reps to failure, then time a minutes rest, and try and get at least 50% of the reps (so 6-7) on the second set.
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        • #5
          The way I look at it is, if you are doing a drop set, you should only be resting enough to change the weight. A giant set should take only the time to get to the next movement....30 seconds isn't a ton of rest, but I remember guys talking about "Blood Volume Training", where their rest period was about 30 seconds, then hammer it again. Reps were higher to force the blood in there, and the short rest was to keep the blood in there....

          As far as rest pause sets, if someone is training DC and they are taking a minute between sets, they're just flat out doing it wrong. If I actually sit there and take 12-15 breaths like prescribed, I am never over 22 seconds or so.....but you hafta be getting positioned toict as well during that time, so as not to go too long. If I was benching and it takes me 4-5 seconds to set up, I gotta do that half way thru my breaths, to ensure I don't go long....

          The reason why you count the second and third set is because these are the sets that are more intense than the first. You can have a hell of a first set, but imo its not gonna ompare to the intensity of the following two sets, if resting is done right and you're busting it. I also think alot of times when guys are getting reps like 12,9,7, that they are using weights that are too light, or are just not capable of hitting the intensity needed to train DC. I know some people here have a problem with members telling others they aren't ready, but in all honesty, most times they are right. There is no way a novice lifter can generate any amount of intensity required to do DC properly......this is why you will see reps like what you said, lack of intensity. Could also be longer rests as well like you said, but then again, that falls into lack of intensity IMO.....
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          • #6
            Originally posted by RedSkull View Post
            I've seen people post videos doing R/P where they're resting a minute plus. Obviously it's just semantics, people can call it whatever they want, but resting a minute or more is 3 sets with low rest periods.

            I remember reading an old Dr Ken Leistner article on cyberpump.com years ago (like 1998 lol) where he said he had his trainees do "50% sets" which was like, rep out 12 reps to failure, then time a minutes rest, and try and get at least 50% of the reps (so 6-7) on the second set.
            I used to always be on that site "back in the day". I did one of their "steel spiels" around 2000/2001. It was a shame when they went to a pay site. I don't even know if it still even really exists.
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            I would like to thank all the stupid people of the world. Without you guys I would only be average.


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            • #7
              I agree with the points brought up. Personally, I try to adhere to 12-15 breaths, which translates into about 25-30 seconds. I wear a watch when I train so I make it a point to look down and see how long it has been since I finished the RP set. If I see I am taking too long and I am still fatigued, I just grit my teeth, inhale deep and suck it up. Generally if my rep range is 11-15, I get something like 7 or 8, then 3 or 4, then 2, and on rare occasion just 1.

              One of my friends wanted to DC training and when I saw him do his first RP set and then sit there, I actually had time to walk over to him and ask what he was doing. He was taking like 60 seconds plus per RP set. Once he cut his rest period down he wasn't able handle the RP sets and had to stop DC.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by RedSkull View Post
                I've seen people post videos doing R/P where they're resting a minute plus. Obviously it's just semantics, people can call it whatever they want, but resting a minute or more is 3 sets with low rest periods.

                I remember reading an old Dr Ken Leistner article on cyberpump.com years ago (like 1998 lol) where he said he had his trainees do "50% sets" which was like, rep out 12 reps to failure, then time a minutes rest, and try and get at least 50% of the reps (so 6-7) on the second set.
                That's pretty much what Paul Carter on LRB.com is advising people to do. It works really well. Except he has you working up to a single (calls it an "overwarmup") and then you do the back off set. Wait 60s, and then you try and beat your back off set as well. It's hard, but it works.
                I think Ed Coan used to do something like that as well in his bodybuilding phases, but I might have read it wrong.
                Disclaimer: I am not a DC trainee/expert/guru/coach, anything I say is purely my opinion based on experience and research I've read

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by steel1970 View Post
                  As far as rest pause sets, if someone is training DC and they are taking a minute between sets, they're just flat out doing it wrong.
                  You sure about that, chief?
                  Ph.D., Theoretical Physics '16
                  kind of a douche

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                  • #10
                    I have read threads that specifically ask how much time you should take between sets during a RP, and the answers from Mods are usually, how ever long it takes to get 12-15 DEEP breaths. I have looked back on my ISOM entry on dips and the time between was like 35 seconds. The reps were 14-4-2. I know I took 15 DEEP breaths. Does this mean it was actually 3 different sets? I don't personally think so.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TLopez View Post
                      I have read threads that specifically ask how much time you should take between sets during a RP, and the answers from Mods are usually, how ever long it takes to get 12-15 DEEP breaths. I have looked back on my ISOM entry on dips and the time between was like 35 seconds. The reps were 14-4-2. I know I took 15 DEEP breaths. Does this mean it was actually 3 different sets? I don't personally think so.
                      Watch your video, probably took 15 breaths than positioned yourself and starte which is the 5-10 second difference. I personally think resting less than 60 seconds between sets a waste unless your trying to SS, RP, or giant. I think 30-60 is kind of no mans land for resting. It does depend alot on your conditioning and intensity on the set before.

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                      • #12
                        I dunno...if Dante wanted it to be a timing thing then I'm sure he would've recommended a certain number of seconds to rest but no, he recommends a certain number of breaths.

                        I like counting the breaths because

                        a) I don't have to wear a watch/constantly look at a clock and,

                        b) it allows for just enough rest to gobble up the oxygen before the next set(s)...

                        I find that if I only take 10 breaths that I don't fail because of muscle fatigue, but more because I didn't suck enough air...I had a few more reps in me it's just the oxygen debt made me stop. If I took 20 breaths then it would

                        a) feel like another set,

                        b) and the feeling of urgency kinda goes away.

                        15 is the sweet spot for me at least.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by theroymccoy View Post
                          I dunno...if Dante wanted it to be a timing thing then I'm sure he would've recommended a certain number of seconds to rest but no, he recommends a certain number of breaths.
                          BINGO, baby.

                          If you're advanced enough to be able to tackle DC training, then you will damn sure know how fast you recover between exertions and know how long is too long.
                          Ph.D., Theoretical Physics '16
                          kind of a douche

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                          • #14
                            I have a watch with a countdown timer on it and it beeps when it is done, so I set it for 25 seconds and go by that... HOWEVER, on front squats or other cardio-killers, if I feel I need a few more deep breaths, I take them. I have a slow breathing pattern (even under stress) and a large lung capacity for some reason, so when I tried the 10-15 deep breath recommendation, it just seemed way too long. Everyone is different, and like Sammwich said, you will know if it is too long.
                            "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." -William G. McAdoo

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                            • #15
                              It's all about the breaths. By breath 10-12 I'm setting up to take the weight again, so that when I hit 15 breaths, I'm pushing/pulling the weight again.
                              …Time is so precious….and you need to ask yourself, what are you going to do today but more importantly, you need to ask yourself – how are you going to do it?

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