Help with Split

[bmp Lightweight Member Find all posts View Profile Close bmp]

Hey guys

background info:

Age: 18
Lifting Experience: almost 4 years with varying levels of consistency
BW: 189-190

Well to tell you the truth I've never called myself a bodybuilder because in my opinion that implies living the lifestyle. I'm simply a guy who likes lifting weights. However recently I have been getting more interested in taking my development to the next level. Here's a typical training week with my personal records inserted:

All exercises performed with good form and range of motion

Chest
Flat DB Press 90sx8 or 95sx5
Decline DB Press 75sx2 sets of 8
Flat DB Flyes 50sx2 sets of 8
Finish with BW dips

Back
Chinups (deadhang to chin above bar) BWxsets of 10, 7, 5
Neutral Grip Cable Row 2 sets of 12 with 180
DB Rows (straps) 100sx2 sets of 9
Behind the head Widegrip Lat Pulldown 2 sets of 10 with 100

Legs/Shoulders
Deadlift 315x13 or 365x6
Ass to Grass Front Squat 185x8
Hamstring Curl machine 2 sets of 9 with 160
Incline DB Press 85sx6
Cable lateral raise 2 sets of 8 with 35
Rear Delt Machine 2 sets of 10 with 120
Calve raises on Hacksquat Machine ramping up to a set with 17 45's for 6 reps

Arms
Strict Barbell Curl 110x5
Close Grip Paused Floor Press 205x5
One arm DB preacher Curl 2 sets of 8 with 30's
Seated Overhead EZ Tricep Extensions 2 sets of 12 with 70 lb bar
DB Curls 35's for 2 sets of 8
Tricep Pushdown 150(stack) for 2 sets of 12
DB wrist curls 30's for 2 sets of 10

Usually on a Mon,Tues,Thurs,Sat schedule

I feel like for my level of development (low) perhaps I could benefit more from a simpler program. One thing though is that I am pretty shoulder dominant when it comes to pressing movements so I tend to avoid the barbell bench press. My anterior delts tend to take over. This is also why I don't have any overhead pressing on shoulder's day but instead a pressing incline movement. Also just to mention my back, triceps, and forearms are practically none-existent.

I'm frustrated with my lack of progress due to a lack of commitment. What do you guys suggest, because progress is slow with this lifting plan. I was thinking of Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 but just substituting barbell bench press for DB bench press

[Lock it Up Intense Muscle Competitor Find all posts View Profile Close Lock it Up]

Why not try a push/pull/legs split? Always liked that old standby.

Have you considered that maybe the reason you don't hit your chest with barbell pressing movements, is that you are performing the movements incorrectly? Most "normal" guys I see at the gym bench really wrong. All that stress is placed on the shoulders ususally because:

1) Youre initial set up is off. You are unracking the bar and when you begin the decent you are coming right down to your delts...that's not right. You need to come down to your nipple line.

2) You're elbows are flared out. Keep them tucked.

3) Your scapula isn't retracted like it should be. This seems to be hard for a lot of guys I see, but you wanna make sure to retract your scapula as hard as possible before setting up. Then, get into position, still retracted, grab the bar, still retracted, and then get going. Most guys loosen up that retract when grabbing the bar and pressing it off the pins, leading to a flat back, and less emphasis on your chest.

4) You're ROM is all off. If you are trying to hit your chest and not looking to just throw weight up (I.E. Bodybuilding, not powerlifting) you never want to let that bar slam into your chest and bounce it up. Also, reduce your lockout time, or eliminate it in favor of 5/6th reps. Almost all the way yp but just short of lockout. This will keep your TUT longer, and if performing your reps smoothly enough, allow you to focus on pushing through with your chest (pulling the bar apart/pushing it together).



Just a few tips. I might be way off base, but that is just general assumptions I made based upon your age and "history". Further, you probably aren't dominant in the shoulders...dominant would mean you could military press 300lbs for 10 reps and only bench 200lbs for 10.

Hope that helps, and I hope that some the above helps out your bench.



As far as the split goes, I would try a push/pull/legs, or a 5x5 with accessory work if I were you.

[bmp Lightweight Member Find all posts View Profile Close bmp]

hey lock it up thanks for the feedback

I think Push/Pull/Legs sounds pretty good. Would that be something like

Mon- Push
Tues- Pull
Wed - Legs
Thurs -Rest Day
Fri -Push
Sat- Pull
Sun - Legs

I'd imagine that could definitely bring faster progress with the increased training frequency. Volume would probably need to be scaled back though. What day would I put deadlifting on though? My back sucks, but I feel like if I pull 600+ there's no way it can be too bad. Right now my PR is 315 for 13 reps or 365 for 6 reps. Do you have a sample program that you have used with success?

Also, you may be right about the barbell bench setup. But to tell you the truth I never saw the point of doing barbell when you can do dumbbells and get better chest stimulation sheerly because you are doing dumbbells (provided you are still lifting with a high intensity).

[Lock it Up Intense Muscle Competitor Find all posts View Profile Close Lock it Up]

I think Push/Pull/Legs sounds pretty good. Would that be something like

Mon- Push
Tues- Pull
Wed - Legs
Thurs -Rest Day
Fri -Push
Sat- Pull
Sun - Legs



Also, you may be right about the barbell bench setup. But to tell you the truth I never saw the point of doing barbell when you can do dumbbells and get better chest stimulation sheerly because you are doing dumbbells (provided you are still lifting with a high intensity).

Typical set up:

Push
Pull
Off
Legs
Push
off
off
Pull
legs
off
push
pull
off
off
legs
push
off
pull
legs

You cycle between hitting each group twice a week. Very reminiscent of DC 3 way split.

Gotta disagree with DB's being superior...I prefer bar movements to DB's. But to each their own. We all have different structures...just gotta adjust for yourself.

[bmp Lightweight Member Find all posts View Profile Close bmp]

Hey just an update + more questions:

So I ended up changing my lifting routine to Jim Wendler's 5/3/1, not sure if you are familiar with it but the template I am on looks like

Sun - Military Press
Tue - Deadlift
Thu - Bench Press
Fri - ATG Front Squat & Barbell Bicep Curl

Substituted ATG Front Squats for standard squats and added Barbell Curls...which Jim said was OK in an FAQ. But basically I decided that I should focus more on getting stronger/bigger for a bit...I want to hit the following with proper form

225 Military Press
500 Deadlift
315 Bench Press
(A good?) ATQ Front Squat
135 Barbell Curl for reps

I'm just too small and weak. Anyway, right now I am stuck on what accessory work I should do. He has a few templates, right now I'm using one recommended by Dave Tate with a few tweaks, just added a bit more back work (V-Bar Pulldowns and DB Rows), some calves.

Military Press (ramp up to a heavy set of 1-5 reps but get as many reps as possible)
5 sets of BW Chinups
5 sets of BW Dips
5 sets Overhead Tricep Extensions
5 sets of V-Bar Pulldowns

Deadlift (ramp up to a heavy set of 1-5 reps but get as many reps as possible)
5 sets of Hamstring Curls
5 sets of Leg Press
5 sets Hanging Leg Raises

Bench Press (ramp up to a heavy set of 1-5 reps but get as many reps as possible)
5 sets of Low Incline DB Press
5 sets of Cable Rows
5 sets of Tricep Pushdowns
5 sets of DB Rows

ATG Front Squat (ramp up to a heavy set of 1-5 reps but get as many reps as possible)
Barbell Bicep Curl (ramp up to a heavy set of 1-5 reps but get as many reps as possible)
5 sets of Low Back Raises
5 sets of Leg Press
5 sets Hanging Leg Raises
Ramp up to 1 heavy set of Calves on Hack Squat Machine slow negative, stretch at bottom each rep

those are all 5 sets of 10, except on BW chins and BW dips. 5 sets of 6 on chins and 10,10,7,6,4 or something on dips.

I think it's worth mentioning that my lats and triceps are practically nonexistent. I think back is one of those muscle groups where training it like a bodybuilder helps. Right now I'm trying to focus on getting better at chinups/pullups, recently I did 14 chin-ups from deadhang, chin above bar, pause at bottom. For tris I've been trying to work on my overhead triceps extensions, my lateral head is decent but long/mid heads aren't there. Also I'm pretty sure that my dips are fucking terrible, am I right? I think I did like 7 or 8 reps with a 45 plate a month or 2 back

What do you think about the training tweaks I've made? Any tips on getting a better back? I have long arms and have been focusing on pulling with my elbows on rowing/pulldown movements. One extra tweak I made was once I could hit 12+ chinups I substituted the 5 sets of 6 chins for http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/charles4a.htm. What do you think?

If it helps I think I have a "pullers" body type, my arms are kinda long. I thought pullers were supposed to have good backs tho? wtf haha

thanks for help from anyone!!!

[bmp Lightweight Member Find all posts View Profile Close bmp]

also forgot to mention that the 5/3/1 goes in cycles of 3 weeks heavy ramped sets and then 1 deload week where the intensity of the main lifts goes down but I still do all the assistance.

[Zoroaster Bantamweight Member Find all posts View Profile Close Zoroaster]

While I'm no expert, the lack of tricep and lat development is probably because you lack the barbell bench in your routine. If you bench powerlifting/competition style, you involve your lats as a stabilizer muscle and can bench more weight, which should shock your triceps into growth. Adding in those chins will also help with the lats.

It's obvious your reasons for using a front squat are to focus on the quads vs. your deadlift hitting the hams. Your hamstrings generally won't limit you since you're using them anyway once you go past parallel on the front squat, and since you aren't deadlifting twice a week or doing GHRs. So, you may want to consider focusing on the back squat instead and using the front squat as an accessory, maybe subbing it for the leg press on one or both days. Just a suggestion; typically more weight on the bar will lead to more growth, although, since you're fairly strong already you may just be concerned with definition in this area.

The last thing I'm noticing is that all of your back work is either hitting the "lower lats" (chins, DB row) or the rhomboid/mid back area (front squat, deadlift, cable row). You may want to consider a strict or bent BB row, or pull-ups/wide-grip chins to make sure you hit the rear delt/"upper lat" region. This may be a region you're neglecting that will bring up the aesthetics of your back. Or it may not, could just be genetics.

[bmp Lightweight Member Find all posts View Profile Close bmp]

Zoroaster; thanks for the feedback

Yeah, over winter break I got my brother to show me how to bench properly. Now I retract my scapula, have a slight arch in my back, tuck my elbows, and touch the bar on my chest a bit below my nipple line. Unfortunately, most people don't know how to do a lift-off properly; they lift the bar UP and OUT instead of just OUT, which makes me lose my whole setup. Whatever, its a work in progress.

Did you check out the link that I posted at the end of post #5? Its a pull-up routine by Charles Poliquin. I figured that now that I can hit >12 chins with perfect form I should start incorporating more pull-up variations where my bicep flexors are less likely to take over (for example wide grip and normal grip pull-ups instead of JUST chin-ups). Is this routine a good way to address the rear delt/"upper lat" region like you suggested?

Also, it sucks cause I have high lat insertions

Good advice on the squatting. Think I'll stick with front squats cause its just a personal goal of mine to rep 225 ass to grass. Then maybe Ill switch to normal squats

[bmp Lightweight Member Find all posts View Profile Close bmp]

Oh ya and any idea why I suck at dips? And am I right in thinking that really making progress on my dips will get my tri's swoll?

[Lock it Up Intense Muscle Competitor Find all posts View Profile Close Lock it Up]

Oh ya and any idea why I suck at dips? And am I right in thinking that really making progress on my dips will get my tri's swoll?

Because dips are a difficult exercise to progress enough to be strong on, and you are not an advanced lifter...just work on em. Try to beat your logbook everytime. Do dips every time it's feasible to add em in....I do dips almost every time I hit tris....


And yes, IMO, the dip is a great tri builder...actually it's a great builder of upper body mass, period.