need help with clean bulking--experienced in strength

[greensoup]

i was very good at strength since i trained like a PL, but was bad at muscle building because of lazy diet habits.

my plan is to do a slow clean bulk of 6 months to get from ~160-185 @ 5'9. Currently ~15% bf, hope to be still 15% bf with the clean bulk. that approximates to 4lb fat gain, 21 lb lbm gains. sound reasonable?

training i believe i got down already. since i took a 9th month layoff, i'm going to do starting strength for a month or two, then move onto 5x5 or 5/3/1 or some bb split. so here's my food plan. in carb/protein/fat/cals
meal 1: blender smoothie: 60/40/10/490
meal 2: blender smoothie (the rest of it): 60/40/10/490
Workout: grape juice/whey: 40/24/2/274
PWO: grapejuice/whey: 40/24/2/274
meal 3: meat/veggie/carb: 80/45/15/635
meal 4: meat/veggie/carb: 80/45/15/635
meal 5: meat/veggie/fat: 10/50/30/510
meal 6: tuna/cottage/cheese/evoo: 10/60/30/550

TOTAL for workout days: 380/328/114/3858
total for nonworkout days (remove the 2 protein drink): 300/280/110/3310

critique? these area all estimates too. only thing i might see is that the protein is excessive right now, and calories might be a little high for my current weight. also, ive been low carb for a long time and i dont know how practical/much it is to eat 80g carbs for 2 consecutive meals in the form of spaghetti noodles.

[bbjeff86]

It's hard to say without having more info as to what you are doing now... is your weight stable at your current intake? Doing any cardio? etc.

At first glance my thoughts:

1. Unless you are brand new to training gaining 21lbs of muscle in 6 months is going to be very tough... can it be done.... maaayyyybbbeee (how old are you, how long have you been training)

2. Calories do seem a bit high for your bf level and weight... but it's hard to tell without knowing what your are currently taking in, and what your weight is currently doing.

3. Too many liquid meals IMO

4. If you are trying to gain lean mass and not get any more fat, I would go lower calories on your non training days... How many days/week will you be training?

[Andre Gregoire]

Listen to Jeff, he knows his stuff and likes to give thorough free advice..lol

I don't think gaining 21lbs of LBM in 6 mths is reasonable for anyone, even if on lots of gear.

Just to give you an idea, I am natural and gained 3lbs of LBM in 6 mths of bulking and put on a shit load of fat. I have been training 17 years and happy with that.

I think your plan has way too many calories for a 160lb'er. If I ate that much I would get fat as fuck.

You would need to tell us how long you have been training, how active you are and how many calories you are eating now to maintain your weight.

[greensoup]

It's hard to say without having more info as to what you are doing now... is your weight stable at your current intake? Doing any cardio? etc.

At first glance my thoughts:

1. Unless you are brand new to training gaining 21lbs of muscle in 6 months is going to be very tough... can it be done.... maaayyyybbbeee (how old are you, how long have you been training)

2. Calories do seem a bit high for your bf level and weight... but it's hard to tell without knowing what your are currently taking in, and what your weight is currently doing.

3. Too many liquid meals IMO

4. If you are trying to gain lean mass and not get any more fat, I would go lower calories on your non training days... How many days/week will you be training?

thanks andre and jeff. let me add more information.

currently 22, stopped lifting after several years since high school of unfocused training in nov 2010 because i did not enjoy it anymore. weight is stable since i'm eating like an average skinny joe--not often nor a lot (hence being 160 from 180). cardio i have never done much and haven't been doing, but will add to my plan for fat maintenance. just started again and have a plan for now/september - march.

i was 180 before i quit. at that time i had a 395 squat, 240ish bench, 455 deadlift, 175 military press. though i did not take care of my diet, which i want to do properly now.

i frequent tnation and try to absorb as much information as possible. from that knowledge i thought that 1 lb / week of LBM might be reasonable? perhaps a little less, but since there is ~26 weeks to 6 months, i thought 21 lb LBM would be possible. am i wrong--am i guaranteed to put on 50% muscle and 50% fat-- something of that sort? otherwise please give me a reasonable estimate of whats possible per week or month so i can adjust my goals.

also, from plugging in those BMR and activity formulas, i got ~2700-2800 calories for maintenance and with a surplus of 500 per day, that puts me 3200-3300 calories per day. i also used berardi's massive eating calculator and that gave me astronomical calories, so that skewed me into thinking the 3300 was a conservative estimate!
when i was very low carb (except PWO) 2 summers ago i'd eat 3000-3500 calories a day @ 175ish and not gain even 1lb for 2 months. for some reason, not having any carbs made it VERY hard to put on weight.

what should the liquid meals be? i have basically 1 giant one (2 the way i wrote it, which is based on whole foods, just blended?) in the morning and that's it, unless you are talking about the workout/PWO stuff, which i thought should be liquids too. of course on off days i would not take those.

for training i am doing starting strength (3x per week with jogging on off days and post workout) for about 5-8 weeks to get strength back up. after that i plan to do 5/3/1 with BB assistance, which i'll worry about when i get there.

let me know if you need any more information. i appreciate the help and want to get off into a good start without glaring errors. Thanks again

[Carlito Gambino]

Like the others said, it's probably a better idea to keep calories lower for off days. Maybe add some fasted cardio on your off days too.

Calories look pretty high for a guy at your weight as well. I'd start with about 3000 on on days and 2500 on off days and see where that takes you. If you find you're gaining, great. If not, add some more calories here and there.

[BuiltToHurtMD]

Listen to Jeff, he knows his stuff and likes to give thorough free advice..lol

I don't think gaining 21lbs of LBM in 6 mths is reasonable for anyone, even if on lots of gear.

Just to give you an idea, I am natural and gained 3lbs of LBM in 6 mths of bulking and put on a shit load of fat. I have been training 17 years and happy with that.

I think your plan has way too many calories for a 160lb'er. If I ate that much I would get fat as fuck.

You would need to tell us how long you have been training, how active you are and how many calories you are eating now to maintain your weight.

As I'm sure you're aware, it also depends on the person. A friend of mine, who is a member of this forum and follows DC and nutrition strictly was able to put on 20 lbs. of LBM in 14 weeks time. He's still shredded even now. Again, there are countless factors to be considered, but I do believe 20 lbs. of LBM could be achievable in 6 months or even less. My friend is also not on gear.

-BTH

[SkinnyMike42]

Listen to Jeff, he knows his stuff and likes to give thorough free advice..lol

I don't think gaining 21lbs of LBM in 6 mths is reasonable for anyone, even if on lots of gear.

Just to give you an idea, I am natural and gained 3lbs of LBM in 6 mths of bulking and put on a shit load of fat. I have been training 17 years and happy with that.

I think your plan has way too many calories for a 160lb'er. If I ate that much I would get fat as fuck.

You would need to tell us how long you have been training, how active you are and how many calories you are eating now to maintain your weight.

Puts it into perspective right there. Wow.

Did you keep the muscle when you dieted off the fat?

[SkinnyMike42]

As I'm sure you're aware, it also depends on the person. A friend of mine, who is a member of this forum and follows DC and nutrition strictly was able to put on 20 lbs. of LBM in 14 weeks time. He's still shredded even now. Again, there are countless factors to be considered, but I do believe 20 lbs. of LBM could be achievable in 6 months or even less. My friend is also not on gear.

-BTH

How did you measure this?

[mentalflex]

How did you measure this?

mchicia, pretty sure he is referring to me. Check out my thread in the picture forums

[Andre Gregoire]

As I'm sure you're aware, it also depends on the person. A friend of mine, who is a member of this forum and follows DC and nutrition strictly was able to put on 20 lbs. of LBM in 14 weeks time. He's still shredded even now. Again, there are countless factors to be considered, but I do believe 20 lbs. of LBM could be achievable in 6 months or even less. My friend is also not on gear.

-BTH

Agreed, it depends on the person and if you are talking about Mentalflex, don't you agree that he is an exception rather than the rule?

I have known and helped a lot of people in the past and it's definitely not common.

Puts it into perspective right there. Wow.

Did you keep the muscle when you dieted off the fat?

I am pretty sure it will stick but I haven't dieted it off yet

[greensoup]

Listen to Jeff, he knows his stuff and likes to give thorough free advice..lol

I don't think gaining 21lbs of LBM in 6 mths is reasonable for anyone, even if on lots of gear.

Just to give you an idea, I am natural and gained 3lbs of LBM in 6 mths of bulking and put on a shit load of fat. I have been training 17 years and happy with that.

I think your plan has way too many calories for a 160lb'er. If I ate that much I would get fat as fuck.

You would need to tell us how long you have been training, how active you are and how many calories you are eating now to maintain your weight.

is it also because you have been in the scene for a long time--diminishing returns--since your avatar has you looking pretty built already, whereas im a mere 160lb girl. not sure if i still qualify for "noob gains" since lifting-wise i'm not a noob, but in terms of putting on mass, i am.

[greensoup]

mchicia, pretty sure he is referring to me. Check out my thread in the picture forums

if you are the 20lb LBM in 14 weeks guy, please tell me what you read / nutrition tips. i don't think i am going to do DC any time soon so i won't worry about that. do you have a log of your progress anywhere? you look quite built already and adding 20lb lbm in 14 weeks on top of that is amazing.

[bbjeff86]

If I were working with you I would have you start at something like 2500-3000 calories/ day on training days, and 2000-2500 on non training days.

I would split that rather evenly between PRO/CARB/FAT (34%/33%/33%)

If you are putting on too much fat for your liking increase cardio and/or reduce calories on non training days.

Not gaining enough muscle/strength... add carbs on training days (specificaly post workout)

As for a reasonable goal I would say .25lbs-.5lbs/week would be a realistic lean gain to shoot for if training and diet are on point for your age and experience. Keep increasing the calories on training days, and decrease them on non training days to find that balance of gaining as much weight as possible with out your fat/waist line going up...

[Carlito Gambino]

That's a solid plan, Jeff. Have you been using that type of setup yourself as well?

[greensoup]

If I were working with you I would have you start at something like 2500-3000 calories/ day on training days, and 2000-2500 on non training days.

I would split that rather evenly between PRO/CARB/FAT (34%/33%/33%)

If you are putting on too much fat for your liking increase cardio and/or reduce calories on non training days.

Not gaining enough muscle/strength... add carbs on training days (specificaly post workout)

As for a reasonable goal I would say .25lbs-.5lbs/week would be a realistic lean gain to shoot for if training and diet are on point for your age and experience. Keep increasing the calories on training days, and decrease them on non training days to find that balance of gaining as much weight as possible with out your fat/waist line going up...

thanks for the help. appreciate the feedback and suggestions; i've done a bulk a couple of years ago and turned into a lard after going off lowcarb/highcals into mediumcarbs/highcals. cheesy potato wedges were the culprit, but man they were god

i know little bit about splitting up p/c and p/f. should i worry about this or is it mainly for you big guys?

also, i've seen 2 sides to this argument but why lower the calories on non-training days? some articles i've read explained that the body continues to recover (build muscle i presume) the day after training too, so cals should be raised. thoughts from IM guys?

is there anywhere solid i can read up on nutrition? i have picked up bits and fragments of information here, and a lot of information over at t-nation, but a lot of it seems contradictory.

BTW: are you 175 in your avatar? holy crap, you look a lot bigger.