Timed carbs on a ketogenic diet

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Hey everyone. Dieting for show in Aug. as some of you may know. I'm still in the early stages(just ending my second week) and I'm having good success in weight loss doing keto all week with a skipload on sunday. I baselined on wed. and dropped another lb today so it seems to be working well in that respect.

Trouble is, now I'm starting to drag ass in the gym after a few sets. I'm more used to keeping a high intensity through my workout(which lasts for just under and hour usually). I've read Lyle McDonalds book on ketogenic dieting and he mentions under the targeted keto section, using up to 50g pre and post workout to fuel workout and recovery. The caveat being dropping out of ketosis for up to a couple hours. Personally I can live with dropping from ketosis for a bit if I can maintain training intensity.

Before I really give it a go however, I'm curious if any of our IM competitors have used this approach and how you liked it? Did it hinder your fat loss at all?

What would be a good carb source to use for this purpose? I know sucrose and fructose are out because they will refill liver glycogen. I was considering using Pure Karbolyn, 50g pre and post.
Thoughts?

[Quadriceps]

I've done something similar, but I only used carbs PWO, fats pre-workout.

1 hour pre-workout: Protein/fat meal
Post-workout: 30 gr Vitargo + 10 g BCAA
30-45 min later: 75 g carbs from cereal or oats + 50 g whey
1.5 hour later: Protein/fat meal

It worked extremely well. I did pretty big refeeds on sundays and by adding carbs PWO allowed me to stay fuller for almost the entire week. I was feeling depleted late friday/early saturday at most, sometimes never.

I'm starting that exact diet in a week or two.

[[email protected]]

I've done something similar, but I only used carbs PWO, fats pre-workout.

1 hour pre-workout: Protein/fat meal
Post-workout: 30 gr Vitargo + 10 g BCAA
30-45 min later: 75 g carbs from cereal or oats + 50 g whey
1.5 hour later: Protein/fat meal

It worked extremely well. I did pretty big refeeds on sundays and by adding carbs PWO allowed me to stay fuller for almost the entire week. I was feeling depleted late friday/early saturday at most, sometimes never.

I'm starting that exact diet in a week or two.

Very nice, that is almost exactly what I was thinking. I alternate pro/fat meals with shakes right now and time it so I have a pro/fat meal about an hour before training.
Were your refeeds a typical "carb load", or do you "skipload" or "shitload"?

[Quadriceps]

Very nice, that is almost exactly what I was thinking. I alternate pro/fat meals with shakes right now and time it so I have a pro/fat meal about an hour before training.
Were your refeeds a typical "carb load", or do you "skipload" or "shitload"?

It was more in the way of Skiploading, but I didn't track it that much and find out when I baselined or anything. I'm gonna manipulate it better this time.

[MachMood]

With keto diets I usually go 10 days of ZERO carbs so my body switches over then jump into a skipload every sunday. THESE 10 DAYS SUCK!!! Im hungry, weak, tired, all the symptoms you would expect. I usually use an OTC fat burner stim like Oxy elit pro that kills appetite for these 10 days so it makes it much easier. After the first 10 days I drop the burner. Funny thing is bye the 3rd week I have TONS of energy and have absolutely no appetite, its truly amazing. I guess I am one of those people who respond great on Keto diets but many people see these results. Just give it time and let your body adapt.

[[email protected]]

With keto diets I usually go 10 days of ZERO carbs so my body switches over then jump into a skipload every sunday. THESE 10 DAYS SUCK!!! Im hungry, weak, tired, all the symptoms you would expect. I usually use an OTC fat burner stim like Oxy elit pro that kills appetite for these 10 days so it makes it much easier. After the first 10 days I drop the burner. Funny thing is bye the 3rd week I have TONS of energy and have absolutely no appetite, its truly amazing. I guess I am one of those people who respond great on Keto diets but many people see these results. Just give it time and let your body adapt.

That is basically how I started out, because I began on a wed. or a thur, and then skiploaded on the second Sun.
I did a keto diet last year and abandoned it because I was too lethargic and unmotivated. The skipload helped alot, but I think PWO carbs should be that last little bit. I just want to make sure it wont really hinder my progress.

[Quadriceps]

That is basically how I started out, because I began on a wed. or a thur, and then skiploaded on the second Sun.
I did a keto diet last year and abandoned it because I was too lethargic and unmotivated. The skipload helped alot, but I think PWO carbs should be that last little bit. I just want to make sure it wont really hinder my progress.

It would probably enhance recovery and therefore speed your progress if anything.

[MachMood]

If you are in a contest prep I assume you have your diet planned out perfectly, by adding 100g of carbs your going to need to cut those cals somewhere else. I would give it another week then re evaluate.

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If you are in a contest prep I assume you have your diet planned out perfectly, by adding 100g of carbs your going to need to cut those cals somewhere else. I would give it another week then re evaluate.

It is planned out, but I'm not sure that the pre and post carbs would actually be "counted"? some of them will be used during training, and the rest should be packed away as gylcogen shouldn't they?

Also, I'm not sure that I will do the "pre" carbs. I think I will start with PWO, as I think that is the best time to shuttle them back into the muscles. My diet is at about 2600 calories right now which is almost 1000 below maintenance, so an extra 200 calories four days a week shouldn't kill me either. BUT, I figured I would drop my protein a little bit for the next couple meals after the PWO carbs?
Thoughts about that?

[Quadriceps]

If you are in a contest prep I assume you have your diet planned out perfectly, by adding 100g of carbs your going to need to cut those cals somewhere else. I would give it another week then re evaluate.

To be clear, the protein/carb meal post workout was instead of a protein fat meal on training days, so he should be able to add it without altering total calories much, or at all.

[[email protected]]

To be clear, the protein/carb meal post workout was instead of a protein fat meal on training days, so he should be able to add it without altering total calories much, or at all.

Right, that's a good point. Usually I would have a 54g isolate shake with 2 tablespoons natty PB. The PB is 190 calories, so almost identical to the 200 from the carbs.

[johngorman]

It is planned out, but I'm not sure that the pre and post carbs would actually be "counted"? some of them will be used during training, and the rest should be packed away as gylcogen shouldn't they?

Also, I'm not sure that I will do the "pre" carbs. I think I will start with PWO, as I think that is the best time to shuttle them back into the muscles. My diet is at about 2600 calories right now which is almost 1000 below maintenance, so an extra 200 calories four days a week shouldn't kill me either. BUT, I figured I would drop my protein a little bit for the next couple meals after the PWO carbs?Thoughts about that?

why drop protein? if you addcals from carbs, just take out cals from fats which you will be doing by replacing fats with carbs PWO or Pre-WO. no need.

thethe thing i would do and always do with myself or others, is to take a GDA with the Pwo meal, and meal after to drop the blood sugar down to get you quickly into ketosis. Slintrol is my personal favorite since it has vanadyl sulfate in it that clears blood sugar. and i also take this with each meal the following day after the big refeed as well. the faster you get back into ketosis, the faster you are burning ketones for fuel.

[RogueTheory]

Sorry to bump and hijack an old thread, I didn't want to start a new one!

Quick question in the same ballpark. I'm currently running a keto cutting diet and I'm reverting back to Skiploading on Saturdays as my form of re-feeding. This Saturday was my first time running it in conjunction with keto, naturally carbs were not counted and were high as possible without discomfort or bloating, with fats kept to trace amounts, from 9am to 6pm (9 hours total). Sunday I hit the gym to work my worst body part (back), followed by 45 min LISS cardio.

Monday morning (post cardio) I've base lined already. I'm assuming therefore that carbs weren't high enough? I didn't Skipload long enough? Fat too high possibly unwittingly? Or is all fine and dandy?

After doing a bit of digging on-line I suspect the issue may have been that my water intake was too low. Sounds the most plausible at this point.

Cheers!

[DensitY]

I cannot speak for Skip on this, as Skiploading is HIS protocol but I would think you may have done what I have in the past and thought you ate a lot of food and you really did not eat enough. So in my case, I needed more food because Id fear getting fat or whatever when I first started. Then, Ive had days when I wake up the Monday after a load DRY, then Tuesday I'm a waterlogged mess. I restricted water durning my load and looked great. Everyone responds different, but I respect the experimentation on your part. How did you LOOK Monday? Full? Dry? Vascular? How are you planning to track progress? What where you doing before?

Are you going by hunger when you load? Is your training high volume or low volume? How lean are you? How much do you weigh? Fast or slow metabolism? How long have you been dieting? What kind of job do you have? Labor or desk job? Water intake per day? Stimulants? Other "stuff" involved? There is a lot to consider. The genetic component plays a factor (as far as I'm concerned) so this is something to consider, as well.

Keto is essentially zero carbs so you may have just been really, really depleted by the weeks end and your body needed more FOOD. You certainly have discipline to be doing kept. Can I ask the foods you load on?

Again...its Skip's protocol. Im a client of Skip's and he knows me better than I do myself at this point so timing is left to his judgement (I'm too much of a head case to make these kind of decisions)...hence everyone is different. His methodology works very well when applied properly in proportion to the situation and relevant parameters, but if your not working directly with him I can't say its actually Skiploading you're doing. This is a great board to get info from, but even then, I wouldn't want to steer you in the wrong direction because I'm not Skip. I do believe even his stance has changed on some things as well, which in my opinion he is a person that seeks continuous improvement in his methods which is also a consideration when considering the load (use of meals vs snacking, insulin use, etc). These are things i cannot provide detail on, as I am not well versed in them at this time. It is best for him to respond, if he choses to do so.

[RogueTheory]

How did you LOOK Monday? Full? Dry? Vascular? How are you planning to track progress? What where you doing before?

Thank you for the feedback.

I felt rather full and slightly watery, as I was eating very sodium dense food (Chinese Noodles/Soup), got an incredible pump and strength increase during Sundays work out. My body fat level is around 15% at the moment, so it's difficult to gauge changes, other than muscle fullness, waist measurement and scale weight.

Are you going by hunger when you load? Is your training high volume or low volume? How lean are you? How much do you weigh? Fast or slow metabolism? How long have you been dieting? What kind of job do you have? Labor or desk job? Water intake per day? Stimulants? Other "stuff" involved? There is a lot to consider. The genetic component plays a factor (as far as I'm concerned) so this is something to consider, as well.

Yes, going by hunger. I'll eat till I'm full and right on the cusp of being slightly uncomfortable, then I'll settle and start again after an hour or two once hunger returns. Training is a basic 5x5, heavy weight, low rep, 4-5 exercises, one muscle group at a time. Metabolism is neither fast or slow, I typically can eat ALOT and have a seemingly insatiable appetite at times. I've been dieting for around 20 weeks now give or take, with a few "slip ups" here and there, which lead to a few 2-3 day binges and a whole week off of binging once or twice, which in hindsight would have been good for leptin levels and to give the metabolism a kick start.

Job is sedentary, routine is 45 min fasted cardio in the AM, weights at 12 for 1 hour, followed by another 45 min cardio. Water intake is around 5 ltrs per day, stimulants wise, 2x Hot-Rox in the AM before cardio, followed by 1 scoop of Kill it before weights, that's it.

Keto is essentially zero carbs so you may have just been really, really depleted by the weeks end and your body needed more FOOD. You certainly have discipline to be doing kept. Can I ask the foods you load on?

This week it was pancakes, Chinese Won Ton noodles, Hot and Sour soup, duck pancakes, Fried Rice, Foot long Subway, 1/4 of a pint of Haggen Daz.
In retrospect I could have eaten alot more, I just didn't want to do my normal and eat until I was bloated and lethargic.