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Keep GH in or out for contest prep ?

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  • gorilla2015
    replied
    Maverick,

    Thanks for the response as the more information that I gather from others that are experienced with GH will only help me in the long run. As far as skip whatever he says I do point blank because the results speak for themselve. He has leaned me out more than I ever could have on my own.

    Thanks again, Gorilla

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  • Maverick
    replied
    Well first and formost I would like to say even though I have never talk to skip I have heard many good things about this ability as a contest prep advisor and because I that I wouldn't advocate going against what he says. He has helped many people get into good contest shape so the man obviously knows what he is doing so if he is telling you to use the GH in a certain fashion then I suggest you do so, since after all you are paying good money for his knowldge you might as well use it. This is just good board ediqutte and I am giving the respect skip deserves.


    As far as the general schools of though on the uses of GH there are three different routines that I personally know of. The first happens to bethe tried and tested method of administering GH right before bed time and during the night. This method acts to mimic the way GH is produced and cycled naturally in the body. Dosages usually range in the 3-10iu range, however 10ius per day is quite a large amount and is only used by those that have precription meds to help combat the side effects and those that can use this amount safely. The only people I know of that use these amounts are the pros and well we all know thier genetic structure. The water retntion alone from 10ius per day would be enough to make any sane individual lower the amount as well as the hyperplasia of the muscle cells would be enough to make you want to naw off your arms and legs.

    The second school of thought is the method you are currently using right now. Injecting in the morning as soon as you wake up and in the md afternoon. This method looks to maximize the potential of Gh by allowing the user to have a continous elevated GH level throughout the day and therby trying to maximize the GH created by the body naturally at night. I have used this method as well but am not entirely convinced this is the best method. In theory this is the best method becuase having a constant elevated blood level of Gh similar in the fashion to testosterone is idel, however I have issues wit the timing of the injections of the GH in the morning when insulin levels are at thier lowest. Yes it takes 2 hours for Gh to activate into the blood stream however by then you will have laready eaten and raised insulin levels, however becuase you need insulin to push much needed glycogen into the muscles the GH will be active by then and push insulin levels back down lower. Same in the afternoon. If you inject in the afternoon ,you eat which rasises insulin levels and in turn lowers Gh, etc etc etc, you see where I am going with this. I agree it is the best method in theory but the timing issues are what have me concerned.

    The third method is to front load GH the first 2 weeks of the month in ridiculosly high amounts ( in excess of 20ius per day) in order to mimic the way a childs body naturally cycles GH during growth. I have read studies on this and not entirely convinced this is ven correct at all. I am by no means a fan of this at all. This basically states to frontload Gh and then coast the rest of the 2 weeks that you are not injecting. The problem is GH has a lifespan of about 8 hours so after that there is no mor eGH, so in theory those remaining 2 weeks you are not coasting on the GH you frontloaded, you are coasting on an empty tank. This method is screaming problems due to the yo-yo effect it creates.


    So really if you are asking which method I prefer the best I would have to say number one. Now there are also the scedules that peple use. I have heard 6 days on 1 day off, 3 days on 2 days off, 1 week on 1 week off etc. I use the regualr 5 days on 2 days off injected IM not sub Q. That also brings up more issues with timing as there are 3 different injecting methods Sub Q, IM, and IV, with sub q being the slowest and IV the fastest. I like IM because point blank it has worked the best for me. Sub Q works fine as well if you are using the first scenario I described but in my experiences and talking with others for the second which says to inject in the morning and afternoon, IM would be the better choice.

    Which is the best method? Like I said before it really depends on the user. I personally like the before bed, during the night as this has worked the best for me. Other may like thier own methods. It really just comes down to a trial and error becuase as we all know there is no cookie cutter cycle that is going to work for everybody. We are all different and becuase of that we are going to react different.



    Maverick

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  • gorilla2015
    replied
    The main point is I agree if you are paying skip for his insight then do what he says and judge the results you recive accordingly. If you can get by without the Gh then do so but if you want to use the GH then know exactly how you use it properly, meaning when to use it, how much and what to use with it.


    I respect your opinions from Mayhem and would like to hear your opinion on the proper dosing and schedule for gh intake. I take 2.5 ius morning and 2.5 ius late afternoon/ early evening along with 25 mcg of t-3, primobolan, susp/ prop , anavar. I am curious to hear your discussion on this. If there is a better way to use the GH and get better results I am all ears.

    Leave a comment:


  • homonunculus
    replied
    Originally posted by joshb
    25-50mcg will not cause muscle loss especially if you are using test,tren, winnyetc. along with it. i would never use it with out some anabolic b/c then you are gonna lose some muscle for sure.
    I generally agree, but take this example:

    Competitor A begins show prep taking supp's you describe above, which he's been taking for several months

    He then begins dieting taking same supp.'s. After 1 mo. of dieting, he adds in 75mg T3, w/o adjusting anything else. 6 weeks later, he's lost some muscle mass that he could have otherwise kept, given how much he lost (just guessing - there is not a control group in this scenario), if he had simply dropped kcal again, and increased protein.

    Again, I agree, josh - 50-75 mcg / d isn't too tough. My personal experience in dieting tells me that T3 is not needed to get very, very lean. Frankly, I believe that if one plans enough time for the diet (and cardio if that's part of the plan) to work, having a slower metabolic rate is favorable b/c it means that muscle mass is less labile and you can better ensure that wt. loss is fat loss. (I also like to vary my caloric intake weekly and over th course of several weeks - taking off weeks - so that I can maintain thyroid function and, perhaps more importantly, have a mini-rebound period where I likely regain some muscle lost during periods of fat loss. Basically its a CKD w/ periodic off weeks...)

    -R

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  • Maverick
    replied
    Hmmm. alot of interested points in this thread. I was not aware that GH caused hair loss. I never knew there was a connection between the thyroid which regulates metabolism function and hair loss. I would like to read moere about that though as I think that would be an interesteing read. Living in the same town as Chad Nicholls and using his methods for my own pre contest and seeing the results of other ameteur athelets that use his advice I would have to say that GH is an effective tool that can be used in contest prep but it isn't absolutely necessary. In fact if you can get by without it then in my opinon you should becuase of what skip stated the water retention you get from it can be difficult to judge body fat when determining contest shape, however it does burn fat like no other when used properly and during my contest prep I help water but nothing I couldn't judge was water and what was fat.

    The main point is I agree if you are paying skip for his insight then do what he says and judge the results you recive accordingly. If you can get by without the Gh then do so but if you want to use the GH then know exactly how you use it properly, meaning when to use it, how much and what to use with it.

    As far as not using T-3, while dieting I really do not think it is necessary as many peole stated you will end up burning off more muscle than you would like however if using GH sometimes t-3 is necessary at loe dosages becuase we aqll know the effects moderate dosages over long peroids of time can have on the thyroid and its regulation of the metabolism. It can in some instances go right down the toliet, so be very careful and good luck to ya.



    Maverick

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  • joshb
    replied
    25-50mcg will not cause muscle loss especially if you are using test,tren, winnyetc. along with it. i would never use it with out some anabolic b/c then you are gonna lose some muscle for sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • homonunculus
    replied
    Originally posted by xRAJAx
    That's true in individuals with full on hypothroidism, they even lose their eyebrows and such. What I didn't know was that GH could put you in that state. I know it lowered it, but to cause Hypothroidism this side effect would be listed on the drug insert for all Growth hormone kits as this would be a major side effect. I wonder if its dose depandant....as I've never had any shedding with GH. Although I've never gone above 4iu a day either. Thanks for the info.

    R
    Just an observation. I've never seen it from GH either (although I haven't used it for show prep., either.) I do notice that I tend to have some hair loss during the last month or so before a show, in lieu of any supplement changes, when I have to drop my kcal to get in shape...

    -R

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  • homonunculus
    replied
    Originally posted by gorilla2015
    Homonunculus,

    I was taking between 25 to 75 mcg of t-3 for the prep would this have to be increased to slow the hair loss and if not what can be used ?
    I would imagine that this would counter that, but I'm not an expert here by any means. The data is mixed from what I've seen, but I thought I might throw it out as a possibility.

    It becomes complicated b/c a dietary caloric deficit will in and of itself reduce T3.

    The dirtiest / easiest way is to measure your morning body temp. (sublingual is fine). Ideally, you have a baseline before you start dieting, but if you find that its much below 98.6?F (e.g., 97 would be fairly low), then you could try T3 to raise this.

    I'm not a huge fan if T3 when dieting simply b/c I've read so many reports (and talked to guy / seen them go through it) of major muscle loss when dieting in T3. Worst case scenario is the competitor who tries to up T3 during the last few weeks before a show to get ultrashredded and ends up losing a boatload of muscle...

    -R

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  • Ken "Skip" Hill
    replied
    There you go, MISquoting me in the main forum. If I was bigger than you, Gorrilla, I would kick you in the head. : ) j/k (sort of).

    I much prefer to not have GH in my client's preps because it makes it very difficult to tell what is fat and what is water during the prep. I don't have a problem with it being in there at the start but when it gets down to below, say, 10 weeks it is a bitch to tell the true condition of someone who is holding 3 gallons of water in each leg. I am also not convinced that it spares muscle as much as everyone thinks it does. I have seen plenty of guys lose size while dropping weight too quickly and they were on plenty of GH.

    I am NOT an expert on GH by any means. I was just giving my opinion of how I hate it in a prep because it makes my job more difficult and I have yet to see any obvious reasons as to why it is so good for prepping. I have probably seen more guys get into better condition without it than I have guys that have used it and that is not just my guys that I am referring to.

    Just my opinion........

    Skip


    massxpress: I am impressed that you have not used GH given your physique.

    Skip

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  • massxpress
    replied
    I never used gh, but I have heard all the arguements. I think offseason use is better if one had to chose. :showoff:
    Last edited by massxpress; 08-13-2004, 03:13 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrAust92
    replied
    I would leave the GH in, great stuff for muscle preservation and fat loss.

    Yes there is edema associated with its use but it you discontinue GH therapy 14 days out you should be fine.

    Anti-e will have little effect on GH-induced edema as it is not estrogen related.

    MA92

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  • xRAJAx
    replied
    Originally posted by homonunculus
    RAJA,

    GH can decrease T3, which can cause hair loss.

    -R
    That's true in individuals with full on hypothroidism, they even lose their eyebrows and such. What I didn't know was that GH could put you in that state. I know it lowered it, but to cause Hypothroidism this side effect would be listed on the drug insert for all Growth hormone kits as this would be a major side effect. I wonder if its dose depandant....as I've never had any shedding with GH. Although I've never gone above 4iu a day either. Thanks for the info.

    R

    Leave a comment:


  • gorilla2015
    replied
    Homonunculus,

    I was taking between 25 to 75 mcg of t-3 for the prep would this have to be increased to slow the hair loss and if not what can be used ?

    Leave a comment:


  • SuperSport
    replied
    Originally posted by homonunculus
    RAJA,

    GH can decrease T3, which can cause hair loss.

    -R
    Interesting Randy....I wonder if alot of guys that lose their hair are deficient in thyroid or t-3 in particular?

    Leave a comment:


  • homonunculus
    replied
    RAJA,

    GH can decrease T3, which can cause hair loss.

    -R

    Leave a comment:

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