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  • Breaking the Rules: Debate on the US Economy

    I make em, I can break em.

    I want to know from people that actually do follow the economy of the US, politics, etc., what you honestly feel the issue is with this Occupy Wall Street Movement and whether this is a consumerism issue or if it is more the fault of the US govt, somehow.

    It is a very complicated issue and as much as I cannot stand the Occupy Movement and all of the college aged turds that have no clue what they are sleeping in a tent and smoking pot for, I also see that when you get into a good debate with someone that does have a brain in their head, there are solid reasons why this might not be a bad thing.

    I say that we are in a depression that is normal and cyclical and has happened forever. It is due, in part, to consumerism (probably the large part) because we can't seem to figure out as a society when to quick buying more and more shit and buying houses and things that we can't fucking afford. I see there are issues with your govt, clearly, but I don't see the govt as the main catalyst in why the unemployment rate is so high, etc.. I think that there will always be greed in a capitalistic society but that is part of what you deal with - much like losers that try to freeload off of welfare, too. It isn't the system that is at fault but some people that abuse it.

    What is the main motivation behind the Occupy Movement and what part is the US govt playing in the economy right now?

    If you can't handle the debate, don't even bother opening your mouth.

    Skip


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  • #2
    I will even add that I think it is very easy for "poor" people or people that are struggling financially, to hate the rich or people that are better off than they are and this happens a LOT in this country - IE: tax the top 1% because they somehow deserve it or something. This is idiotic and typical of a lot of people's stances when they don't have something (resentment).

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    • #3
      I think tha--
      Originally posted by Ken "Skip" Hill View Post
      If you can't handle the debate, don't even bother opening your mouth.
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      kind of a douche

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      • #4
        I think you are going to see the Occupy movement split into two groups.

        Socialists.. And Libertarians. The socialists want their share of the rich people's money.. The libertarians want the government to get out of the business of picking winners and losers in the free market and allow things to regulate itself.
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        • #5
          See, this makes sense about them splitting because right now there are some points made about the movements motivations that are completely contradictory to other points made. That is why it seems to unorganized and unfocused. It might be 3 groups with the third being the dumb fucks that have no clue why they are out there, at all.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Ken "Skip" Hill View Post
            ...I say that we are in a depression that is normal and cyclical and has happened forever. It is due, in part, to consumerism (probably the large part) because we can't seem to figure out as a society when to quick buying more and more shit and buying houses and things that we can't fucking afford. I see there are issues with your govt, clearly, but I don't see the govt as the main catalyst in why the unemployment rate is so high, etc.. I think that there will always be greed in a capitalistic society but that is part of what you deal with - much like losers that try to freeload off of welfare, too. It isn't the system that is at fault but some people that abuse it.

            What is the main motivation behind the Occupy Movement and what part is the US govt playing in the economy right now?

            If you can't handle the debate, don't even bother opening your mouth.

            Skip

            I have quite a few ideas and opinions on this topic, but I wont write them all right now, just a few. I agree that we are in a depression right now and whether people say recession/depression, in this case I feel its a matter of semantics.

            I agree with you that they are normal and cyclical. However, in this case, I tend to think that this is not just a normal and cyclical depression as the result of a capitalistic free-market, (which lets be honest here does not truly exist in this country), and that the US has not really had a natural cycle in quite a while. Most of our economic ups and downs, are artificially created by the government (whether directly or indirectly) since we have relied so heavily on Keynesian Economics, which has been the case for quite some time. Compound that with the fact that we no longer rely on the gold standard, and it's no wonder the economy is where it is. Instead of natural cyclical highs and lows, we find ourselves having huge profitable bubbles, followed by devastating lows, companied with inflation due to artificially manipulating interest rates among other things.

            I agree 100% with you that consumerism is also to blame, with people buying shit they can't afford, and ignorance is no excuse when it comes to something as important as your home, so to sit and blame the banks and mortgage companies for the fact that you can no longer afford your mortgage is a cop-out to me. Same with living off of welfare, but the welfare state should not have been instituted in the first place, much less gotten to the point where it is today, so the government must hold some blame. How much is where the debate gets fun. Do I agree with the Occupy Movement? On some level, perhaps in principle, only so far as people are pursuing that which they feel is wrong and trying to change things, which is one of the founding principles of the country. Things have gotten out of hand. Is Wall Street to blame? Would those protestors have not pursued higher paychecks and bonuses for themselves and their own families had the roles been reversed? I would be willing to bet they would have accepted the same bonuses. I don't even think they know the reason for the protest(s) other than the "they have what we don't" mentality.

            Good topic, hope it stays civil and on topic.


            MT

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            • #7
              I don't think this had anything to do with USA. It is a global problem without borders. The economy in itself with a monetary system that is not based on a solid exchange such as gold, or other "real" thing is fake. Our whole global monetary system is fake, blown up say 10-1000 times the real net worth of what people can actually produce or create in their lifetime. This disproportion between real and fake worth is then allowing some people to throw around this fake worth to fuel the greed or one-upmanship of many people. Buy this TV, buy that car etc... Get into debt, it's no big deal... So the people creating this fake worth are playing on people's natural greed, insecurities and basically the seven cardinal sins ;-)

              So I see it as a giant poker game, where people that hold aces have told to everyone at the table. Let's 100-tuple what we have here people, "we're all good for it, right?". Sure, yeah right. When the game is over, and you actually lay the cards on the table, the day comes when you have to pay back this overblown sum. Oupsie-daise, ain't that easy. Now the world knows.

              funmetal

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              • #8
                Michael: I feel as you do about the movement. I do think that it is the American way to protest when you feel something is wrong or unjust. I just feel that the large majority of the movement is blind to what they are protesting. Most have no clue or the most basic understanding of what they are doing.

                Again, it sounds like you agree that there is resentment between the haves and the have nots. I have to question if I was a have not right now if I would be out crying about it, living in a tent and getting arrested or if I would be out putting that same effort into getting work. The reason a lot of what they are doing and saying is falling on deaf ears is because most people get tired of hearing people whine, bitch and complain. I admit to not even bothering to look into the movement until very recently for this same reason. Now, though, I admit to noticing more and more large scale companies going bankrupt and am starting to wonder if there isn't some method to the madness at least in PRINCIPLE. Clearly, if there is, it proves that the movement is not terribly clear on what the hell it is doing or I would have noticed a long time ago what their focus was.

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                • #9
                  My view:

                  There's all types of people involved in the OWS movement, all of which with probably their own specific issues as to why they are protesting. There isn't a coherent message that echoes through everyone in the movement, and further...there isn't any leader of any kind. Everyone is their own leader, and that is something that is actually pretty amazing if you think about it, and to me it's what separates this from other protests.

                  But the message that is resonated throughout the gatherings all over the world
                  "Shit is FUCKED up, and it isn't right."

                  Capitalism, in its existence today, is pretty damn evil, if you ask me. Corruption is abound and EVERYTHING is for profit. But the world has always been this way...it's only now that the masses are recognizing it is happening in the world's only superpower; The United States.

                  The way the world works will not change...not in one generation, and certainly not without a violent overthrow of the system by the MAJORITY. The middle class isn't gone...but it's shrinking rapidly. When the time comes that there are much more people who have to scrape and claw to provide for their families, than those who are doing "okay"...then something will happen. I believe this is the start though.

                  It sucks, but were still all animals...as long as there is money to be made, and more power to be had, people will be willing to do whatever they can to be on top.

                  However, I will say that while I think the movement is right in many respects, it's not right to classify anyone that is better off than you financially as part of the problem. Everyone tries to just get theirs...Some people are in better situations by luck, are smarter, or just plain work harder than others to get it.

                  The way I see it though, there is no ONE gripe that this movement has...their is a myriad of them. Mainly though, I truly believes it all comes back to Capitalism, and what it has (de)volved into. There are some righteous people involved in politics and the economy with lots of power no doubt, and I don't believe there is just a huge mega conspiracy between Government and Corps...but I do believe it does and will always come back to the almighty dollar, and those on top will always want to be on top....regardless of who wants to take it from them. It's our culture. We have it all backwards.

                  It shouldn't be about keeping people down, but advancing ourselves.

                  That's just my overlook on the whole thing. Not very specific, I know, but I just wanted to type that out for myself. I'd love to debate some points though.

                  And to anyone thinking that this is an American Problem, I beg of you to re-consider that outlook. It's a global one. There are some nations out there that have it better in terms of many things, but American government, politics and the economy all impact the entire world...just look at the Military Foreign policy. America is an empire.

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                  • #10
                    Isn't it more a protest against banking policies and their influence in politics?
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by blackdog1996 View Post
                      Isn't it more a protest against banking policies and their influence in politics?
                      It would be just as easy to argue that its a protest against current politics and their influence in banking..

                      I think that's part of the issue Skip raises, is that do the people involved even know what the 'f' they're protesting?


                      MT

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                      • #12
                        There will never be a solution that satisfies everyone.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Michael Travis View Post
                          It would be just as easy to argue that its a protest against current politics and their influence in banking..

                          I think that's part of the issue Skip raises, is that do the people involved even know what the 'f' they're protesting?


                          MT
                          There are quite a few people we've delt with that have absolutely no idea what the hell they're protesting. Some folks were arrested and asked by media where they stood on the occupy movement...they answered they're out, partying and having a good time, the media asked if they even knew what it was they were doing out there, the guys looked at each other, laughed, and said "to party, and get high in public out here." I'm aware not all are this idiotic, but my God if you're just there to occupy space, gtfo.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mark! View Post
                            There are quite a few people we've delt with that have absolutely no idea what the hell they're protesting. Some folks were arrested and asked by media where they stood on the occupy movement...they answered they're out, partying and having a good time, the media asked if they even knew what it was they were doing out there, the guys looked at each other, laughed, and said "to party, and get high in public out here." I'm aware not all are this idiotic, but my God if you're just there to occupy space, gtfo.
                            Hell, if I was still single, kid less, and jobless - I would absolutely be down there hanging out with people. Sounds like my college days a bit. oh well. /backontopic
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lock it Up View Post
                              My view:



                              Capitalism, in its existence today, is pretty damn evil, if you ask me. Corruption is abound and EVERYTHING is for profit. But the world has always been this way...it's only now that the masses are recognizing it is happening in the world's only superpower; The United States.

                              The way the world works will not change...not in one generation, and certainly not without a violent overthrow of the system by the MAJORITY. The middle class isn't gone...but it's shrinking rapidly. When the time comes that there are much more people who have to scrape and claw to provide for their families, than those who are doing "okay"...then something will happen. I believe this is the start though.
                              There is nothing wrong with profit. The media and society will give a negative connotation to profit, but it shouldn't be like that. Profits tell producers that they are providing a good or service that people value at least as good as the amount they are willing to pay. Entrepreneurs are responsible for increasing our standard of living in the past, and they will continue to do this in a capitalistic society, all in search of a profit.

                              What do I think about the situation? I think the protestors are using the housing bubble as a motive to attack Wall Street. (Which is more of a governmental failure than a market failure, due to Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the Federal Reserve). I think the real issue is that they don't like income inequality. They don't like that there are some people that are really wealthy while others aren't so wealthy.

                              For the record, I am speaking from a libertarian POV, but I am also speaking as an economist.
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