Steroids and Baseball

[dakoose]

I have some questions on how steroids work with baseball players and I guess in general. With the recent suspension handed out to Melky Cabrera for using testosterone in the midst of his best year to date, a lot of the press is saying that getting busted is going to really put a dent in his free agency and that his earning potential has eroded significantly. All that is clearly operating under the premise that with him getting off the juice he'll revert to old Melky and he won't remain the big-time hitter he was this year.

Now, I've never used and I don't plan on it, but from what I've read and seen from lifters that have juiced, it appears that if you do things right after a cycle most of the gains that you make, you keep. You're not going to keep all of the gains, but you can keep most of them. Now, with athletes, specifically in baseball, there's a sentiment that after guys get busted their numbers dip significantly once they get "off." Is that just a bunch of garbage?

I understand that not all of the benefits that baseball players get from steroids are muscle and strength related; for instance, I remember seeing literature about improved vision and hand-eye coordination with PED use as well as faster bat speed through the zone. The latter is strength related but it's different in that it's not what I typically associate with strength.

With all that said, shouldn't an athlete be able to retain most of what he picked up while on cycle? I mean, pro's have access to the best of the best when it comes to training equipment, trainers, supplements, etc; you'd think they're in the right environment to retain a lot of what they get out of the cycle.

Am I off base here?

I mean, if it is true that a lot of players regress after getting off the juice, it's possible that it's because they didn't do things right. Baseball players aren't really work-out and nutrition warriors; maybe they're regressing because they didn't make retainable gains while juicing.

Anyone following what I'm saying?

[JohnnyBravo]

I mean, if it is true that a lot of players regress after getting off the juice, it's possible that it's because they didn't do things right. Baseball players aren't really work-out and nutrition warriors; maybe they're regressing because they didn't make retainable gains while juicing.

Anyone following what I'm saying?

These are my guesses:

I think that is part of it. I don't know for sure, but I'd assume a big part of it is quicker recovery as well. Baseball season is a grind, day after day, game after game, nagging injury after nagging injury. I'd think PEDs would make that easier to deal with, and result in a player being less fatigued and "nicked up" over the course of a season. The logic then would be that he wouldn't be so much stronger than normal Melky, but relatively he'd keep his strength and endurance more than other players, and be able to take advantage of this comparative advantage. Similar to a well conditioned player, or having a few extra rest days. Presumably you lose that once you stop?

Another part may be simply psychology. Hitting a baseball requires an immense amount of skill, but also, as anyone who's played baseball can tell you, it is easy to get psyched out up at the plate and just feel like you've lost all ability to hit.

[SDMF]

I'm just guessing here, but I think that faster recovery from PEDs is one thing that really helps baseball players. They play almost every day, and the season is really long. After they go off of them that faster recovery isn't there.

Also, I think most baseball player don't take PEDs with the intention of putting on an extra 20 lbs of muscle. So, there is less for them to lose after they go off of them.

Edit: youngbb got to the answer before I could, but said mostly the same thing.

[pearlharbor1207]

Hank Aaron said the recovery aspect of PED's at the end of Barry Bond's career were the only thing that made it unfair. I agree that is a big part of it.

I have heard that increased serotonin helps with hand-eye coordination. I have no experience here, but I would be curious for those of you who do to weigh in on that...

[steel1970]

I'm just guessing here, but I think that faster recovery from PEDs is one thing that really helps baseball players. They play almost every day, and the season is really long. After they go off of them that faster recovery isn't there.

Also, I think most baseball player don't take PEDs with the intention of putting on an extra 20 lbs of muscle. So, there is less for them to lose after they go off of them.

Edit: youngbb got to the answer before I could, but said mostly the same thing.

Recovery, and longevity. You see and hear about alot of the "older" guys possibly having been on PED's.....allowing them to recover better obviously from the rigors of the schedule, possibly recovering from nagging injuries quicker, etc. What about the effects that some PED's have on joint health and what not? Baseball players are notoriously beat up joint wise, from the daily pounding their knees and other joints take simply from fielding, let alone throwing and batting....

Strength comes into play when we are talking about the home run, but home runs are a combination of power AND bat speed. You can get quite a few homers with either/or, but a combo of both can be epic....Too much bulk could obviously slow the bat down in some....

I had heard and read that GH use was the cause of some guys being able to see the ball better....I know that I am 42, and just went yesterday to get fitted for a pair of glasses, after having perfect vision my whole life (up till about 6 months ago I think...lol). So if GH can help their eyesight at all, why wouldn't they use it? I certainly would if my money depended on it...lol

[Kidrok (Hop)]

Recovery would be a big benefit, yes, they can then train harder, longer. Size isn't as much a factor, you may see more of an increase in strength and muscularity with minimal size gain with the way the use. Remember, drugs alone won't get you big, you need to eat alot and train accordingly.

[Kidrok (Hop)]

And let me add.....they should leave them all the hell alone and just let them play ball!!!

[dakoose]

I've thought about the R&R angle as well, but I have a hard time really buying into that when it comes to baseball. I mean, yes, it's a sport but it's a skill sport and outside of pitching the physical demands of the game itself are not very high.

Think of the actual game itself: A hitter gets, on average, 4 plate appearances per game. A player will get on base 1-2 times per game, maximum. Most guys aren't base-stealers and won't have to be busting it down the basepaths more than 1 time per game, on average.

Move to the field. Infielders have minimal energy exertion in a given game. There's some lateral movement, but in terms of explosive, high-energy bursts, those are few and far between. Outfielders get more burn than infielders, but compared to other sports it's nothing. If R&R is such a big deal for baseball players, surely more basketball players would be juicing to help deal with the daily grind of their games, no? If anything, baseball players would exhibit mental fatigue, I would think, with 162 games over the course of six months. If they're getting physical fatigue it's probably because they're in terrible shape.

[dakoose]

I guess the crux of what I'm thinking here is:

Is it reasonable to expect players to keep up their performance level, or at least stay close to their "on-gear" levels, once getting off the juice if they come off of their cycles properly using the right PCT along with proper nutrition and training regimens?

[Kidrok (Hop)]

I've thought about the R&R angle as well, but I have a hard time really buying into that when it comes to baseball. I mean, yes, it's a sport but it's a skill sport and outside of pitching the physical demands of the game itself are not very high.

Obviously the talent already needs to be there or there is very little benefit. It just makes a faster stronger more conditioned clutz. :twitch:

[steel1970]

I've thought about the R&R angle as well, but I have a hard time really buying into that when it comes to baseball. I mean, yes, it's a sport but it's a skill sport and outside of pitching the physical demands of the game itself are not very high.

Think of the actual game itself: A hitter gets, on average, 4 plate appearances per game. A player will get on base 1-2 times per game, maximum. Most guys aren't base-stealers and won't have to be busting it down the basepaths more than 1 time per game, on average.

Move to the field. Infielders have minimal energy exertion in a given game. There's some lateral movement, but in terms of explosive, high-energy bursts, those are few and far between. Outfielders get more burn than infielders, but compared to other sports it's nothing. If R&R is such a big deal for baseball players, surely more basketball players would be juicing to help deal with the daily grind of their games, no? If anything, baseball players would exhibit mental fatigue, I would think, with 162 games over the course of six months. If they're getting physical fatigue it's probably because they're in terrible shape.

But.....think about the energy they exert in fielding practice, batting practice, throwing practice, etc. This is what I was talking about with the joint issues. Bouncing around on the field day in and day out for 8 months outta the year is not an easy task. Yes, during a game you may see a 2nd baseman make a few big plays, and then most of the game is just casual catch and throw, BUT, most of the actual SEASON is not like that. They too hafta perfect their craft, and it certainly doesn't come from 2-3 plays per game. It comes from the months and months of practice, behind the scenes....

You're a basketball player. How many hours upon hours did you practice? Pounding up and down the court, fouls shots till you can't feel your arms, etc. Same goes for most sports. Some it's just not as evident during the games as to what type of work they gotta put in....

[SkinnyMike42]

Baseball is more about mental fatigue more than anything else. I competed at the D1 level and even 60+ games a season is LONG. Add 100 games to that...plus spring training. It is crazy. Mix in all the practices and mandatory conditioning and you get worn the hell down.

I have never used, but I would imagine it is much easier to recover, both mentally and physically. I think that is the biggest advantage.

[Ken "Skip" Hill]

I don't have a lot of time but I want to bang out a few points:

First, baseball is incredibly rigorous and a HUGE demand on the body given the arm motion used in baseball is unnatural. The arm is put under incredible stress whether pitching or throwing from behind the plate or the outfield or third base. The movements used are very explosive and when you are not exploding 75% of the game this is why torn hamstrings and pulled groins happen so much.

The motions involved in basketball are natural and even though they are constantly moving during a game they aren't doing anything that puts a ton of stress on the body and they are constantly "warm", too.

I am a huge baseball fan and am confident that the main issue/benefit is recovery. Strength is gained from steroids but I don't think that is the main appeal and keep in mind that if you are recovering well between games then you don't deal with fatigue as much, either, and fatigue zaps your strength, too. Even if strength weren't gained from the use of steroids in baseball, better recovery would provide more strength than being fatigued all the time.

Personally, using testosterone or a compound that doesn't work well at providing strength to the tendons is not a very good idea, in my opinion. There are much better options than testosterone for a baseball player or someone that relies on tendons staying strong and healthy.

I don't think for one second that all baseball players are getting top-notch nutrition or training advice or gear advice. I have seen how in the NFL, the knowledge of these players when it comes to nutrition is, at best, laughable. Gear is tested so well these days that the drug use isn't anywhere near as high as most would think. It is incredibly difficult to use and not get caught and at least in baseball I think the punishment is HUGE. The suspensions handed down lately are very harsh. They may be warranted, I don't really know, but they are damned sure long. Ramirez got something like 150 games if I remember correctly.

Even if PCT did work to keep all of the gains, these guys aren't that "tight" with their nutrition, gear use, training, etc.. If the player/user is older then they don't keep as much of their gains, anyway, in my opinion. That is one reason I am not big on PCT but that is another discussion altogether.

Skip

[SkinnyMike42]

Good point Skip.

When Mcgwire admitted to using, he also admitted that he had no idea what he was using. He claimed he took the "steroids" orally sometimes and other times he would inject, but had no idea what they were.

[dakoose]

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But.....think about the energy they exert in fielding practice, batting practice, throwing practice, etc. This is what I was talking about with the joint issues. Bouncing around on the field day in and day out for 8 months outta the year is not an easy task. Yes, during a game you may see a 2nd baseman make a few big plays, and then most of the game is just casual catch and throw, BUT, most of the actual SEASON is not like that. They too hafta perfect their craft, and it certainly doesn't come from 2-3 plays per game. It comes from the months and months of practice, behind the scenes....

You're a basketball player. How many hours upon hours did you practice? Pounding up and down the court, fouls shots till you can't feel your arms, etc. Same goes for most sports. Some it's just not as evident during the games as to what type of work they gotta put in....

Yes.....but still, basketball players don't need to fall back on the juice to be effective and in terms of physical demands, their games, practices and drills are far more demanding than all of the stuff baseball players go through. Look at all the baseball superstars who are fat and out of shape. You have Prince Fielder and Miguel Cabrera carrying the Tigers; with the amount of work basketball players have, I don't think it's possible to get that fat.

So, yeah, I'm sure there's some physical wear and tear for baseball players, but personally I don't think it's that demanding of a game, and if basketball players don't need to juice to recover from, what I perceive, a much more demanding game, I don't think baseball players are so physically spent that they need to use test to be up for games.

And as a reference, I vended baseball games at Wrigley Field in my late teens and early 20's and I watched what most of these guys do for the few hours before the game......it's nothing. There's a few light sprints, some minor stretching, shagging balls, etc, etc. I just don't respect the athletic and physical requirements in baseball, for a majority of players.