Ben and jay athletic program help

[walker]

Hey guys,
Hoping to get some input on how you would put a program together that's geared toward strength and explosiveness while still trying to maintain or add size. I guess my goals are somewhat similar to a football player or MMA fighter.
I can only be in the gym lifting 3 days a week, which does not include conditioning which I perform throughout the week. Would you have one day soley for Olympic lifting,plyo work ect and the other couple of days strength? Or mixed?
If you could give me a sample of what you would suggest to do each session that would be great.
Thanks

[brineal]

I would recommend doing one olympic lift (probably power clean, power jerk - or split if you are proficient/comfortable enough, and a snatch variation) each day at the beginning paired with a plyometric drill, followed by a squat variation (front or back depending on the olympic lift - front/power clean, back/snatch, or overhead - but this will seriously limit the weights used). following that, some press variation (bench, military, push press etc) paired with pull ups (use various grips - parallel, under/overhand, wide/narrow), db/bar rows, upright rows or some other heavy pulling exercise (heavy lat pulldowns or machine rows work too). on one day you could also do some shrugs, power shrugs are especially beneficial for developing power in the trapezius. beyond that, its kind of up to you for accessory lifts for arms etc, im a big fan of dips of all kinds -weighted, eccentric, explosive, pretty much any dip is good for you. with those olympic lifts, you'll want to do some shoulder stability/rotator strength work, so 3 way shoulder is a good quick way to address that (front raise/laterals/bent raise in one set - usually around 30 reps which can be paired with abs at the end of the workout. theres also a lot of good shoulder capsule exercises to be done with jump stretch bands, those can really light your back and shoulders up and help developing dynamic strength. i hope this helps somewhat..

edit: oh ya, my credentials are B.S Kinesiology, CSCS, USAW, and I am earning my master's degree (M.S. Exercise Physiology) as a Graduate Assistant Strength Coach at a D1 University - the mens track team I coach recently won their conference championships..

[thedunhill225]

Skills are specific so I don't really get the reason for Olympic lifts or plyometrics in athletic training. If someone believes that those exs are the best way to develop the Target muscles then I understand their use (though I would disagree). Skills don't transfer, strength transfers.

Peace

[lhart6272]

Skills are specific so I don't really get the reason for Olympic lifts or plyometrics in athletic training. If someone believes that those exs are the best way to develop the Target muscles then I understand their use (though I would disagree). Skills don't transfer, strength transfers.

Peace

So you are saying if I add 50lbs to my clean its going to do nothing to my ability to reach out and explosively pull some one into position for a throw or my ability to throw an explosive upper cut?

[walker]

Brineal, a few questions.
-How many reps would you be aiming for?
-Why do you suggest oly lifts before squating? Does this effect leg strength gains?
-Where could you put deadlifting in?
Really good information there bro, thanks alot for taking the time to share it!

[thedunhill225]

So you are saying if I add 50lbs to my clean its going to do nothing to my ability to reach out and explosively pull some one into position for a throw or my ability to throw an explosive upper cut?

To the degree that the muscles involved got stronger, yes it will. Any skill you have.gained in performing the.ex will not transfer. Skill are specific.

[lhart6272]

I'm not sure why you haven't made a fortune as strength coach, you could have saved so many athletes from wasting there time working on th O lifts to develop explosiveness.

It's the ability to move in an explosive manner that transfers....

[brineal]

Dunhill, olympic movements are used in the training of athletes for two main reasons: they train extension at the hip knee and ankle and they enhance neurological recruitment of muscle fibers. Jumping, running, cutting, skating, sprinting all require what of the leg? Extension at the hip, knee and ankle, that fact is not disputable. The olympic movements require rapid extension at these same joints, so I'm not sure how much more specific you can get with regard to training?

Secondly, these movements are performed by generating force at a significant velocity. This is called power, (power = force x velocity). Powerful movements in sport require a great number of motor units to be recruited rapidly and olympic movements require just that as well, again this is not disputable and you can't get any more sport specific.

I don't know what you've based your opinions on, but they are not those expressed by the majority of strength and conditioning professionals, nor are they supported by any body of research knowledge that I'm aware of...

[brineal]

Brineal, a few questions.
-How many reps would you be aiming for?
-Why do you suggest oly lifts before squating? Does this effect leg strength gains?
-Where could you put deadlifting in?
Really good information there bro, thanks alot for taking the time to share it!

1. For olympic lifts, no more than 5 reps per set and even then that is probably best done in the first few weeks to increase work capacity. I really don't like going over 3 for the most part in olympic lifts because they are very metabolically demanding and it almost becomes like endurance work.

As far as the strength work (squats, deads, presses) a simple strength program is more than sufficient, usually in the 1-6 reps for strength work, 8-15 for hypertrophy and anything above 15 is muscular endurance work.

2. Oly lifts come first because they are technical and form breaks easier when you've done exercises prior to them. Also, you want to be as powerful as possible during those lifts and doing them first just helps that.

3. You could do deads as an alternate to squats one day, in fact, that would probably be better than overhead squats because overhead squats are, well, a bitch and your upper body will always be the limiting factor even more so than front squats. RDL's are awesome and directly transfer to the olympic lifts so those should be in there too.

You could also do clean/snatch pulls and not release the bar after shrugging.

[walker]

Do you see the need for max effort days and dynamic days?

[lhart6272]

Do you see the need for max effort days and dynamic days?

Olympic lifts are DE.

[thedunhill225]

Dunhill, olympic movements are used in the training of athletes for two main reasons: they train extension at the hip knee and ankle and they enhance neurological recruitment of muscle fibers. Jumping, running, cutting, skating, sprinting all require what of the leg? Extension at the hip, knee and ankle, that fact is not disputable. The olympic movements require rapid extension at these same joints, so I'm not sure how much more specific you can get with regard to training?

Secondly, these movements are performed by generating force at a significant velocity. This is called power, (power = force x velocity). Powerful movements in sport require a great number of motor units to be recruited rapidly and olympic movements require just that as well, again this is not disputable and you can't get any more sport specific.

I don't know what you've based your opinions on, but they are not those expressed by the majority of strength and conditioning professionals, nor are they supported by any body of research knowledge that I'm aware of...

Your point number 1...yes, I agree but a deadlift would train all the some movements.

Your point number 2... You are speaking of a skill when you speak of co-ordinating the rapid recruitment of motor units. You re-ask state a question you asked in paragraph one about the specifity of the training. Let me say, no, its not specific or as specific as you van get. Running, jumping, cutting, etc... Are skills and Olympic lifting is a skill. The recruitment paterns are not similar. Sure by training a power clean for example you will most likely increase the strength of the muscles used for running so as long as you practice the skill of running... Your performance may improve.... But any training that improved the strength of the same muscles would have the same effect. Moving a wt faster does not cause a muscle fiber to contract any harder or faster....it may help your body learn to co-ordinate the movement better...the skill you are performing... But that co-ordination will end with that movement or skill. SAID principle.

Your last paragraph.... There have been plenty of successful strength coaches that feel the same way I do and see things that same way.... But so what? If one person in a room full of a thousand were to be correct about anything....that's changes not based on the number of people who agree with him. BBing, strength training, etc... Has become a religion to many.

Now as far as research goes...I have seen no research showing explosive lifting to increase power to a greater degree than controlled lifting when the same amount of work is done. If there is any studies done comparing the same work load, same number of exs, same everything between a group training explosively and a group training in a controlled manner that shows a greater increase in a measurable test of athletic performance (such as vertical jump, Sprint speed, etc...) For the subjects training explosively then I would love to see it.

I am not arguing at all, just trying to discuss the subject.

Peace.

[walker]

I understand oly lifts fall under DE but how about squating,deads,bench,pressing ect or is the oly lifts sufficient?

[lhart6272]

If you are not moving huge numbers on bench, squat, etc I personally would think ME/RE would be sufficient though I'm.no expert and very interested in what others think.

[brineal]

Your point number 1...yes, I agree but a deadlift would train all the some movements.

Your point number 2... You are speaking of a skill when you speak of co-ordinating the rapid recruitment of motor units. You re-ask state a question you asked in paragraph one about the specifity of the training. Let me say, no, its not specific or as specific as you van get. Running, jumping, cutting, etc... Are skills and Olympic lifting is a skill. The recruitment paterns are not similar. Sure by training a power clean for example you will most likely increase the strength of the muscles used for running so as long as you practice the skill of running... Your performance may improve.... But any training that improved the strength of the same muscles would have the same effect. Moving a wt faster does not cause a muscle fiber to contract any harder or faster....it may help your body learn to co-ordinate the movement better...the skill you are performing... But that co-ordination will end with that movement or skill. SAID principle.

Your last paragraph.... There have been plenty of successful strength coaches that feel the same way I do and see things that same way.... But so what? If one person in a room full of a thousand were to be correct about anything....that's changes not based on the number of people who agree with him. BBing, strength training, etc... Has become a religion to many.

Now as far as research goes...I have seen no research showing explosive lifting to increase power to a greater degree than controlled lifting when the same amount of work is done. If there is any studies done comparing the same work load, same number of exs, same everything between a group training explosively and a group training in a controlled manner that shows a greater increase in a measurable test of athletic performance (such as vertical jump, Sprint speed, etc...) For the subjects training explosively then I would love to see it.

I am not arguing at all, just trying to discuss the subject.

Peace.

I understand you're discussing, I didn't mean to come off as being a dick, youre more than entitled to your opinion, its just not a popular one at any level of sports performance coaching, I can assure you that.

Deadlifts aren't the same as cleans because they are performed slowly, they are a strength exercise. Cleans, snatches and their variations are NOT strength exercises, the strength gained from them is coincidental. Their purpose is rapid extension of the hip, knee, and ankle and recruitment of motor units. Olympic weightlifters have been shown time and time again to be able to recruit a greater number of fibers more rapidly than other athletes. this is why an olympic lifter can move 2-3x his or her bodyweight overhead in a single movement lasting less than 2 seconds. how else could that be possible? I can show you a multitude of studies which show that training olympic lifts enhance explosive performance. The body of literature entirely supports their use, which is why they are so predominant in strength coaching for athletes. The only reason i can see for a strength coach to not use the olympic lifts with their athletes is if they don't have the necessary equipment, in which place plyometrics would take their place.