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Old 11-09-2004, 07:06 AM   #1
TheManGuy
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Carbs on non training days?

I know we're not supposed to talk diet, but I need some help.

I'm thinking of going low carb 100g or so on non workout days, while bulking to stay lean.

I do well on low carb diets, but I'll eat as much carbs as I want on training days till 6.

Then on non-workout days I'll cut all carbs, exept veggies, 1 fruit and trace carbs in nuts etc. I'll also do cardio on these day's. 3 days a week.

My body needs the carbs on workout days, but doesn't seem to know what do do with them on non traing day's so I just get fat from them.


I'll still keep my cals high, on off days.


Doing something like this: I'll up the cals as I go along offcourse. With 450-500g pro ed.

Traing day 5000-6000 cals
non traing 4500 cals.

I am trying someting simelair but with lower calories for a cut, and I am losing fat and I'm picking up quite a bit of muscle too.

Any reason why this would be a bad idea?
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Old 11-09-2004, 01:26 PM   #2
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I am trying someting simelair but with lower calories for a cut, and I am losing fat and I'm picking up quite a bit of muscle too.
you're loosing fat and still gaining some muscle,....... seems like it's working to me.
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Old 11-09-2004, 01:31 PM   #3
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The only difference with on-day and off-day carbs for me is post workout carbs. I still take them in at the other times I normally would (first thing in the morning since I'm cutting).
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Old 11-09-2004, 01:51 PM   #4
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So I don't NEED to eat alot of carbs aslong as I'm getting in the calories and beating the logbook?

On workout day's I'll eat probly 400-500g carbs. about 300 of these around my workout. (pre- post workout)
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Old 11-09-2004, 01:54 PM   #5
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My dietician is very good btw, top level fitness compeditor and does the pre contest diet's of many of the top bb's in my country.
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Old 11-09-2004, 10:20 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by TheManGuy
So I don't NEED to eat alot of carbs aslong as I'm getting in the calories and beating the logbook?

On workout day's I'll eat probly 400-500g carbs. about 300 of these around my workout. (pre- post workout)
We don't count calories on this program, just protein grams.
As far as what you should eat for carbs, that's pretty individualistic. You'll have to determine how much carbs to eat, depending if your gaining too much fat or to little muscle.

good luck
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Old 11-10-2004, 06:23 AM   #7
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that's just a ballpark calorie figure. I just eat as much as I can usually.

Thanx. so it seems I'm doing good then.
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Old 11-10-2004, 11:22 AM   #8
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I like a lot of carbs the day before leg day...gives me more fuel IMO!

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Old 11-10-2004, 11:57 AM   #9
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I think some complex carbs are necessary on off days, so you can "fuel -up" for the coming training session the next day,I just wouldn`t go overboard on them.
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Old 11-10-2004, 12:14 PM   #10
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Even though you don't work out every day of the week your body still has nutritional requirements every day of the week.Those off days from the gym your body is repairing and rebuilding the muscle tissue that you broke down with your workouts and going so low in carbs those days you're not going to have the same recovery as you would just intaking a moderate amount.
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Old 11-10-2004, 05:52 PM   #11
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If you don't need carbs for energy, then what are their purpouse on my off days?

My body easely uses fat as fuel. He're how I see it.

I need carbs for the insulin spike after a workout to help with nutrient uptake, I also need them on workout days to fuel my workouts and fill my glycogen stores.


So let's say day one is a workout day. I eat as much carbs as I want until about 3.(complex mostly)

then I drink my pre workout shake 45min before workout. then I train at 4, till 5. including 20 min cardio after training(incline treadmill)

At 5 I drink a HUGE post workout shake, then an hour later I eat a HUGE plate of food say 200g cabs here.

Now at this time my glycogen stures should be fully replenished and I've used the postworkout window to it's max.

So the next day I'll live my life, do say 1 hour of walking as my cardio and eat lots of protein and unsaturated fats. Since my body uses both ingested and stored fat as fuel, why would I want to eat carbs on this day??

Don't get me wrong I used to just pile down the food every day. Sure I put on alot of weight, put on about 18lbs of muscle in the last 6 months but also went from 6% bf to 14 %.


I'm sure I can stay lean next time and I'm trying to find the pefect balance for me to acieve maximum muscle gains while staying below 10%bf.


I think that cutting out carbs on off days is the answer for me.

I could eat 300g carbs on off days, but what good will that really do me??



I'm on 160g carbs on workout days at the mo and about 100g on off days and my strength is fine, I squatted 400lbs yesterday night. I'm actually getting stronger and bigger at a good pace while leaning out quite a bit.

Well that's that, thanx everyone for your help and patience.

I'm hoping dante can help me out on this one.
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Old 11-12-2004, 01:17 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by TheManGuy
If you don't need carbs for energy, then what are their purpouse on my off days?

My body easely uses fat as fuel. He're how I see it.

I need carbs for the insulin spike after a workout to help with nutrient uptake, I also need them on workout days to fuel my workouts and fill my glycogen stores.


So let's say day one is a workout day. I eat as much carbs as I want until about 3.(complex mostly)

then I drink my pre workout shake 45min before workout. then I train at 4, till 5. including 20 min cardio after training(incline treadmill)

At 5 I drink a HUGE post workout shake, then an hour later I eat a HUGE plate of food say 200g cabs here.

Now at this time my glycogen stures should be fully replenished and I've used the postworkout window to it's max.

So the next day I'll live my life, do say 1 hour of walking as my cardio and eat lots of protein and unsaturated fats. Since my body uses both ingested and stored fat as fuel, why would I want to eat carbs on this day??

Don't get me wrong I used to just pile down the food every day. Sure I put on alot of weight, put on about 18lbs of muscle in the last 6 months but also went from 6% bf to 14 %.


I'm sure I can stay lean next time and I'm trying to find the pefect balance for me to acieve maximum muscle gains while staying below 10%bf.


I think that cutting out carbs on off days is the answer for me.

I could eat 300g carbs on off days, but what good will that really do me??



I'm on 160g carbs on workout days at the mo and about 100g on off days and my strength is fine, I squatted 400lbs yesterday night. I'm actually getting stronger and bigger at a good pace while leaning out quite a bit.

Well that's that, thanx everyone for your help and patience.

I'm hoping dante can help me out on this one.
bump, was wondering the same thing
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Old 11-12-2004, 02:21 AM   #13
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Themanguy: This is my take on your scenario. First, carbs serve other purposes besides refilling muscle, liver stores etc. Your're assuming that since you have already refilled(whether its maxed out or not, we won't know) glycogen stores with your large pwo shake and large pwo meal, that you won't need any carbs any more cos additional will be stored as fat aye?

I think yo're missing the point about recuperation on off days. These days are much more important than your trainings as they allow your muscles to recover , grow etc. To be able to do this efficiently and to prep yourself for the next similar workout in 3-4 days and to help you beat your log book, your muscles, those that have been put under stress and have glycogen depleted bla bla, need ample, if not more than enought nutrients to be able to recover.

Thus, the 1 of the most anabolic hormones in the body able to achieve this is insulin. And one of the main 'stimulants' of insulin release are carbs. Insulin drives a.a from protein and carbs into glycogen storage that effeciently that abstaining from carbs on non-workout days would hamper growth. Insulin also spares muscle protein.

Also, did you know by consuming meals without carbs, insulin would still increase as increased a.a concentration does cause an insulin release. This means that cells would be primed for glucose absorption in response to insulin release. This means that since no carbs were ingested, blood glucose is taken in and stored. This causes hypoglycemia and to prevent this from happening, liver glycogen is changed to glucose to restore baseline blood glucose levels. All this would lead to nowhere as you're breaking down your own stores, to replenish stores elsewhere.. no net increase joe.

About gaining fat so easily on a bulk.. think the best way to clarify all these and have you gaining lean mass like a monster is by you hiring dante. Best decision..
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Old 11-12-2004, 12:21 PM   #14
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Make no mistake if I lived in the USA, I would be working with dante. However at my current level and age it simply wont be possible to do so.

So what would be optimal. Remember I'm still gaining muscle here on a low carb diet as we speak.

I understand that insulin is very anabolic, however I simply found that if I eat carbs/suger I get fatter, where as If I eat fat I don't.


Let's say I cheat, eating kfc would be fine, but eating a candy bar is a no-no.


I could eat carbs at breakfast on non-workout days and maybe one more meal at say 2pm.

Eating say 150g of carbs would be OK, but eating 400+grams and then not traing that same day just seems to make me fat!

It's not the calories either, it's the carbs. Would the loss of a couple of insulin spikes(helping recovery but blunting insulin sensitvety) be such a bad thing??

Since my body would then be primed for the carbs on my workout days and I'd get more of a spike post workout.

I'd really like some more opinions since, carbs on off days don't seem to change my recovery ability of up my streangth in the gym either.

Last edited by TheManGuy; 11-12-2004 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 11-12-2004, 12:53 PM   #15
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Carbs help shuttle protein to your muscles, if you don't eat carbs or a moderate amount of fat then your body will/does use protein intake for energy. Keep in mind that Dantes diets are efficient, when you ef with it you are no longer efficient. If your adhere to your carb cutoff, and cardio you will never have a problem.

My advise would be to stick to one goal at a time. It is much harder to gain weight then it is to lose it ask anyone. What I'm doing is getting to my weight goal, then I'll screw with my macro ratios to keep the weight but change composition.
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Old 11-12-2004, 01:06 PM   #16
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AAs doent need insulin to be absorbed by the muscle cells. Though If you want to keep your carbs low you should still eat enough carbs to keep keep the liver from depleting. If that is done and you are a really easy fat-gainer you should IMO be ok.
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Old 11-12-2004, 02:21 PM   #17
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Why is it that sumo wrestlers have a higher lean body mass index than any other athlete in the world?

CARBS, eat em and grow, worry about the washboard once you've reached your goal BW wise, or when your prepping for a contest.
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Old 11-12-2004, 08:14 PM   #18
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I'M IN CAPS..

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManGuy
Make no mistake if I lived in the USA, I would be working with dante. However at my current level and age it simply wont be possible to do so.

So what would be optimal. Remember I'm still gaining muscle here on a low carb diet as we speak.
BUT WOULD YOU BE BEATING OUT MORE REPS AND RECOVERING AND GAINING AT A MUCH FASTER RATE WITH HIGHER CARBS? *SHRUGS* BUT IF YOU'RE COMFORTABLE STICKING WITH LOW CARBS AND SACRIFICE SOME GAIN(I'M BEING HYPOTHETICAL HERE), TO REDUCE FAT GAIN, BY ALL MEAN CONTINUE WITH IT.

I understand that insulin is very anabolic, however I simply found that if I eat carbs/suger I get fatter, where as If I eat fat I don't.
EVEN LOW GI CARBS? TAKE A LOOK BACK AT PREVIOUS BULKING PHASES YOU WENT THROUGH AND SEE IF THE HIGH GI CARBS ARE APLENTY. TELL ME TRUTHFULLY HOW 'CLEAN' THOSE BULKS WERE..

Let's say I cheat, eating kfc would be fine, but eating a candy bar is a no-no.
WHY? YOU KNOW THAT THE CARBS IN KFC ARE A LOT TOO? WHAT DO YOU MEAN FINE? YOU WON'T GET FAT? YOU'RE FULL LONGER?

I could eat carbs at breakfast on non-workout days and maybe one more meal at say 2pm.
THAT WOULD BE FINE, KEEP IT REAL LOW IN GI AND BUMP THE FIBER. THAT'D MINIIZE FAT INTAKE FOR SURE.

Eating say 150g of carbs would be OK, but eating 400+grams and then not traing that same day just seems to make me fat!
LIKE USMUSCLE SAID EARLIER, HAVING THE SAME CARBS AS SCHEDULED ON NON TRAINING DAYS AS TRAINING DAYS, EXCEPT SKIP THE PWO SHAKE AND SCALE DOWN ON THE HUGE CARB PWO MEAL, EVERYTHING WOULD BE FINE.

It's not the calories either, it's the carbs. Would the loss of a couple of insulin spikes(helping recovery but blunting insulin sensitvety) be such a bad thing??
I HAVE NO IDEA REALLY. IT MAY, BUT SINCE YOU'RE STILL GAINING FINE.. I REALLY DUNNO. SORRY!

Since my body would then be primed for the carbs on my workout days and I'd get more of a spike post workout.
HUH? WHAT LOGIC IS THIS? ELABORATE..?

I'd really like some more opinions since, carbs on off days don't seem to change my recovery ability of up my streangth in the gym either.
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Old 11-12-2004, 09:32 PM   #19
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This is a rewrite from a article written some time ago..

In popular bodybuilding culture it is falsely believed that insulin is the most anabolic hormone, and that having constantly elevated insulin levels will yield massive gains in lean body mass. Of course, that is rather silly since no one gets massive on insulin only cycles.
For those who feel the need to disagree, and feel that insulin is in fact that most anabolic hormone, I recommend you try two 10-week cycles using any high calorie diet and training routine that you like, so long as you use similar one's during each cycle. On the first cycle use 150 mg of test prop every day (1050 mg a week), and on the second one, inject as much insulin as you like, as often as you like (without killing yourself of course). I would be willing to bet that on the testosterone cycle you would gain far more lean body mass, and far less body fat. In fact, to date, virtually every athlete who has tried an insulin only cycle didn't seem to accelerate their gains in lean body mass dramatically, however they generally complain that they gained a great deal of body fat.
While insulin is certainly anabolic, its effects are highly over-rated, and at anything above a very low dose, its effect on increased protein synthesis rapidly yields diminished returns. The same holds true for insulin released by the body in response to food ingested. Furthermore, having continually, or even frequently elevated insulin levels greatly reduce the body's release of hgh, igf-1 and a number of other growth factors. It also tends to promote greater gains in body fat per excess calorie ingested beyond maintenance, as well as a reduction in muscle tissue insulin sensitivity. The potential negative health risks of this are beyond the scope of this writing, however needless to say, reduced insulin sensitivity tends to yield reduced gains in muscle mass, and promote the acquisition of adipose tissue (body fat).
The key to using insulin strictly for the promotion of gains in lean body mass, without gains in body fat, is to time it in a manner that allows for the maximum release of other anabolic hormones, and when muscle tissue is so sensitive to insulin that virtually all of it produced, and the glucose molecules that it transports, will be absorbed by muscle tissue rather than adipose tissue. While this is only a general formula, and will have to be adjusted slightly from individual to individual based on their metabolism and energy needs, it lays a good foundation for one seeking to achieve this result.
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Old 11-12-2004, 10:49 PM   #20
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Bro, the only reason guys are as big as they are now is because of insulin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eiv
This is a rewrite from a article written some time ago..

In popular bodybuilding culture it is falsely believed that insulin is the most anabolic hormone, and that having constantly elevated insulin levels will yield massive gains in lean body mass. Of course, that is rather silly since no one gets massive on insulin only cycles.
For those who feel the need to disagree, and feel that insulin is in fact that most anabolic hormone, I recommend you try two 10-week cycles using any high calorie diet and training routine that you like, so long as you use similar one's during each cycle. On the first cycle use 150 mg of test prop every day (1050 mg a week), and on the second one, inject as much insulin as you like, as often as you like (without killing yourself of course). I would be willing to bet that on the testosterone cycle you would gain far more lean body mass, and far less body fat. In fact, to date, virtually every athlete who has tried an insulin only cycle didn't seem to accelerate their gains in lean body mass dramatically, however they generally complain that they gained a great deal of body fat.
While insulin is certainly anabolic, its effects are highly over-rated, and at anything above a very low dose, its effect on increased protein synthesis rapidly yields diminished returns. The same holds true for insulin released by the body in response to food ingested. Furthermore, having continually, or even frequently elevated insulin levels greatly reduce the body's release of hgh, igf-1 and a number of other growth factors. It also tends to promote greater gains in body fat per excess calorie ingested beyond maintenance, as well as a reduction in muscle tissue insulin sensitivity. The potential negative health risks of this are beyond the scope of this writing, however needless to say, reduced insulin sensitivity tends to yield reduced gains in muscle mass, and promote the acquisition of adipose tissue (body fat).
The key to using insulin strictly for the promotion of gains in lean body mass, without gains in body fat, is to time it in a manner that allows for the maximum release of other anabolic hormones, and when muscle tissue is so sensitive to insulin that virtually all of it produced, and the glucose molecules that it transports, will be absorbed by muscle tissue rather than adipose tissue. While this is only a general formula, and will have to be adjusted slightly from individual to individual based on their metabolism and energy needs, it lays a good foundation for one seeking to achieve this result.
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Old 11-12-2004, 11:36 PM   #21
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So what would be optimal. Remember I'm still gaining muscle here on a low carb diet as we speak.
your doing good so you at least don't need any drastic diet changes.

Quote:
I could eat carbs at breakfast on non-workout days and maybe one more meal at say 2pm.
thats a good start to possibly increase your gains (especially breakfast).
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Old 11-13-2004, 05:39 AM   #22
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youve already stated that your happy with your results so why screw with it??

just keep doing what your doing till youve got your BF under control and happy with leaness then simply add your carbs on your non-training days to see how much diffrence it makes, keep the carb cut off and the cardio and you cant go wrong.

I add fat really easily but due to my carb cutoff and cardio 4 times a week im staying at around 10% BF (2 months since my last show! im usually a good 16% by now).
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Old 11-13-2004, 07:54 AM   #23
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I'm gonna stick to my current diet till I'm about 8%, should be 6 more weeks or so. I'm 13-14%bf at the mo.

Then I'll eat breakfast as a carb meal(outmeal or meusli, with soy milk). See how it goes, then introduce another carb meal as my 3rd meal a month later or so, with sweet potato's as my carbs.

That should be fine, I'll just introduce carbs on non training days very slowly so I can monitor the difference.

My carbs are pretty clean. I rearly cheat. I'll eat potatoes and stews etc, but usually only on trining dayf before or after training.


One last thing. Doing cardio(1hour brisk/incline walking) on an empty stomach is fine right??

I just take my bcaa and some glutamine and a fatburner before.
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Old 11-13-2004, 10:29 AM   #24
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One last thing. Doing cardio(1hour brisk/incline walking) on an empty stomach is fine right??

I just take my bcaa and some glutamine and a fatburner before.
As long as the cardio is not too intense. Some folks take downa 25-30g protein only drink 20-30 min before the cardio but the bcaa/glutamine is probably giving you the same benefit.
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Old 11-13-2004, 12:58 PM   #25
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Watch out for that soy milk.A little dash in your coffee isnt gonna harm you but if you're pouring it all over your cereal you're not gonna like the results on your physique.
About 2 years ago Dante and I both experimented with dropping skim milk from our diets and replacing it with soy milk...no other changes in the diet other than that.After less than a week of this we both concluded that it was not such a great idea as estrogenic side's became very apparent.
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