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Old 06-18-2009, 01:35 PM   #1
David1991
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Overdone refeeds?

Hey guys, I don't really post on here (or anywhere anymore for the most part) but I do read the site and like the quality a lot.

I was wondering something about the refeeds talked about on here. I'm on a CKD with low calories during the week and one refeed a week. I see some people say they gain 10+ pounds from the refeed but on Sunday morning I had only gained 3.5lb.

However monday I was down 1.5lb, then another 1.5 on tuesday, missed wednesday, and today (Thursday) I was down 1 more pound so I'm 0.5lb. less than the beginning of last weeks carb up (By the way this is my first time weighing myself like this, I generally do it once every 2 weeks but I wanted to see how my weight went down after the refeed. So now I'm barely lighter than last week and it took 3-4 days (depending how you look at it I guess) to hit ''baseline'' (Wednesday) leaving only 3 days to lose weight. Is that too slow?

It seems weird that some here are gaining over 10lb. by the next day but then are back to baseline in 2 days by Tuesday while I gained a third of that and hit baseline Wednesday. Skinfolds as of today are about the same as on Saturday morning.

Main Question: Is it possible my refeed was too large? Should I not refeed this Saturday and wait until next Saturday? By the way it was about 5000 calories and 7-800g of carbs. I workout 4x a week with 6 low intensity cardio sessions
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Old 06-18-2009, 01:41 PM   #2
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Your skinfolds should stay basically the same. The 10ish lbs alot of people put on is like 98% water. The reason is because ea carb stores 3g water. Eating 800g carbs is 2400g water which will get stored. Thats where the weight is. I dont think you overdid the refeed at all, and I also dont remember anyone around here baselining in one day (I could be wrong on this). Usually it takes me around 4 days.
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Old 06-18-2009, 01:46 PM   #3
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if anything your refeed was small judging from the weight gain. baselining should happen in about 3-4 days depending on leanness
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Old 06-18-2009, 01:51 PM   #4
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Your skinfolds should stay basically the same. The 10ish lbs alot of people put on is like 98% water. The reason is because ea carb stores 3g water. Eating 800g carbs is 2400g water which will get stored. Thats where the weight is. I dont think you overdid the refeed at all, and I also dont remember anyone around here baselining in one day (I could be wrong on this). Usually it takes me around 4 days.
well 3200g total of carbs + water is already over 7lb. but I guess a lot would be excreted before the next morning. As far as the baselining, I think most people said about 3 days. I don't know if that means Sunday, Monday, then hitting it Tuesday or if they mean Monday being 1 day after the morning after then Tuesday then baselining Wednesday.

By the way why should skinfolds stay the same? Wouldn't I want that as low as possible? What concerned me is that if it was almost the same today, another 2 days (saturday morning) isn't going to make much difference and then I'd be going in circles unless I'm wrong about the 2 days.

I don't have a lot of muscle right now which is another reason I thought 800g might have been overkill and was considering waiting until next Saturday to refeed again.

Last edited by David1991; 06-18-2009 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 06-18-2009, 01:53 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by dropshot001 View Post
if anything your refeed was small judging from the weight gain. baselining should happen in about 3-4 days depending on leanness
As mentioned about I'm not very big (or lean lol ) So thats why I thought it may have been excessive and was wondering about waiting until next saturday. The jump in weight being so small did surprise me though.

Last edited by David1991; 06-18-2009 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:01 PM   #6
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Define not very lean. If you are in the 10-15% range you can got with larger refeeds. If you're in the 15-25% range then a shorter refeed window may be a better option. Also, how high is your fluid intake each day and what is your training and cardio regimen?

I used to refeed on Sundays and wouldn't baseline until Tuesday or Wednesday but on Thursday or Friday morning I would have a 1-3 pound drop in my weight from the previous weeks baseline as well.
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:03 PM   #7
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Your refeed was fine, judging by 1) amount of time it took to excrete gained water (and/or deplete stored glycogen); and 2) your overall weekly weight loss of 1/2lb.

If you lost more than a pound overall, I would up your refeed. But for now whatever you are doing seems adequate

Are you counting carbs? If so, you shouldn't, and simply gauge refeeds by hunger. If you MUST count carbs due to OCD (lol) then tally them up after the damage has been done

BTW-700-800 in an entire day? Over how many meals? I do that amount in my 1st meal, LOL
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:14 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boondocksmuscle View Post
Define not very lean. If you are in the 10-15% range you can got with larger refeeds. If you're in the 15-25% range then a shorter refeed window may be a better option. Also, how high is your fluid intake each day and what is your training and cardio regimen?

.
-I'm at about 13.5% according to the calipers.
-Fluid intake isn't tracked but at least 12-16 cups of water a day (constantly going to the bathroom)
-4 strength workouts a week
-Low intensity Cardio 6x a week. 3 fasted in the morning, 3 after working out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boondocksmuscle View Post

I used to refeed on Sundays and wouldn't baseline until Tuesday or Wednesday but on Thursday or Friday morning I would have a 1-3 pound drop in my weight from the previous weeks baseline as well.
Well if the refeed was Sunday it would be equivalent to me not hitting baseline until Thursday since I hit it Wednesday after a Saturday refeed. I'll have to see how weight loss is saturday but I was hoping to drop about 1 pound of fat a week and like I said, skinfolds were unfortunately about the same today as Saturday even with the 1/2lb. drop in weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth View Post
Your refeed was fine, judging by 1) amount of time it took to excrete gained water (and/or deplete stored glycogen); and 2) your overall weekly weight loss of 1/2lb.

If you lost more than a pound overall, I would up your refeed. But for now whatever you are doing seems adequate

BTW-700-800 in an entire day? Over how many meals? I do that amount in my 1st meal, LOL
well the 1/2lb was in 5 days. You think 1lb. a week is too much? I was really hoping to lose about 1lb. of fat a week so maybe slightly over a pound of weight a week.

As I mentioned in my first post I don't post much but I do read the site and your a freak with refeeds , also much bigger and leaner than me. Yes the 7-800g was from about 8am-11pm....I could have eaten more but thought it wouldn't have been a smart idea.

Quote:
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Are you counting carbs? If so, you shouldn't, and simply gauge refeeds by hunger. If you MUST count carbs due to OCD (lol) then tally them up after the damage has been done
Missed this part. Thats basically what I did, I ate what i wanted that day (low fat though) and just wrote it down as I went and tallied it all up at the end giving the numbers I listed (about 5000 calories and 7-800g carbs)
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:21 PM   #9
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I said MORE than a pound a week would warrant an increased refeed. Losing 1/2-1lb a week is optimal.

Establish some sort of parameters for your refeed, ie, a window that is measure by hours instead of meals. For example, shoot for as many carbs as you can COMFORTABLY handle in 6 hours and note the results.

My motto is, if you COULD have eaten more, then you SHOULD have
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:24 PM   #10
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Skinfolds only measure subcutaneous fat, not visceral fat. Don't get to caught up in the measurements. Are you looking leaner in your progress pictures each week? Are you using any type of fat burner? 12-16 cups isn't a great way to measure it unless you are using the same size cup every time. Shoot for at least a gallon of water or more every day.
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:32 PM   #11
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Just as a note to everyone, I know I gain fat very easily which is where the concern comes from

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth View Post
I said MORE than a pound a week would warrant an increased refeed. Losing 1/2-1lb a week is optimal.

Establish some sort of parameters for your refeed, ie, a window that is measure by hours instead of meals. For example, shoot for as many carbs as you can COMFORTABLY handle in 6 hours and note the results.

My motto is, if you COULD have eaten more, then you SHOULD have
OK well when I want to I can eat A LOT of food

So you guys think I should still have a refeed this Saturday?

Myth, I've never gone by hours because I've read it's about the amount not the time period you get it in (Lyle Mcdonalds keto book). If I should have a refeed Saturday what would be a good amount of hours to start out with? Going off my last refeed that was 15 hours and I ate about 7-800g of carbs which, if going by how much I could have eaten, could have been about 1200+g I'd say. Going on that and what else I've written how many hours would be a good place to start for someone like me if hours is the way to go?

All responses are appreciated guys
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:32 PM   #12
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Are you counting carbs? If so, you shouldn't, and simply gauge refeeds by hunger. If you MUST count carbs due to OCD (lol) then tally them up after the damage has been done

BTW-700-800 in an entire day? Over how many meals? I do that amount in my 1st meal, LOL
if i went by just hunger i'd eat two meals on a refeed, one when i woke up and one about 8 hrs later

and myth is an exception as he's the same guy who can put on 30 plus lbs a refeed
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:37 PM   #13
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Skinfolds only measure subcutaneous fat, not visceral fat. Don't get to caught up in the measurements. Are you looking leaner in your progress pictures each week? Are you using any type of fat burner? 12-16 cups isn't a great way to measure it unless you are using the same size cup every time. Shoot for at least a gallon of water or more every day.
by "cups" I meant actual cups, like the measurement. I would guess it's just about a gallon a day.

As for my progress pics, I do take them with my phone with the same lighting and everything. I have seen some improvements, not much from saturday morning to last night but some slight improvement in the mirror I noticed when I lifted my shirt. Saturdays pic was also just for fun after working out and carbs so obviously not a fair comparison. I guess the reason I get caught up in measurements is because it seems like the most reliable thing to me, you know? They don't play tricks like your eyes can

oh and no fat burners used. Just whey, creatine, fish oil, and a multivitamin

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if i went by just hunger i'd eat two meals on a refeed, one when i woke up and one about 8 hrs later

and myth is an exception as he's the same guy who can put on 30 plus lbs a refeed
I'm somewhat the opposite. If I went by eating as much as I could while feeling comfortable I'd be eating most of the day. For instance last saturday I woke up and ate until I was pretty full (but not about to puke or anything) and then wanted more about 1-2 hours later

Last edited by David1991; 06-18-2009 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:38 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by David1991 View Post
Just as a note to everyone, I know I gain fat very easily which is where the concern comes from



OK well when I want to I can eat A LOT of food

So you guys think I should still have a refeed this Saturday?

Myth, I've never gone by hours because I've read it's about the amount not the time period you get it in (Lyle Mcdonalds keto book). If I should have a refeed Saturday what would be a good amount of hours to start out with? Going off my last refeed that was 15 hours and I ate about 7-800g of carbs which, if going by how much I could have eaten, could have been about 1200+g I'd say. Going on that and what else I've written how many hours would be a good place to start for someone like me if hours is the way to go?

All responses are appreciated guys
Start small and progress from there. As Myth said before, start w/ a 6 hour window. Eat as much as you comfortably can during that time and see how long it takes to baseline and if you drop weight. If you baseline in a day or two and then drop several pounds increase the number of hours (and number carbs) of your refeed the next week.
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:42 PM   #15
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by "cups" I meant actual cups, like the measurement. I would guess it's just about a gallon a day.

As for my progress pics, I do take them with my phone with the same lighting and everything. I have seen some improvements, not much from saturday morning to last night but some slight improvement in the mirror I noticed when I lifted my shirt. Saturdays pic was also just for fun after working out and carbs so obviously not a fair comparison. I guess the reason I get caught up in measurements is because it seems like the most reliable thing to me, you know? They don't play tricks like your eyes can

oh and no fat burners used. Just whey, creatine, fish oil, and a multivitamin
Measurements can trick you just as much as your eyes can. If you really want an unbiased opinion on your progress pics post them up and see what the board thinks about your progress. Are you dieting just to be a certain weight/bf% or to look a certain way? I'm guessing it's to look a certain way so the measurements are just arbitrary markers of progress. The accuracy of the calipers may be horribly inconsistent too depending on who is running them.
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:42 PM   #16
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I read this somewhere before. Basically you have to earn your carbs/refeed...
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:54 PM   #17
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Start small and progress from there. As Myth said before, start w/ a 6 hour window. Eat as much as you comfortably can during that time and see how long it takes to baseline and if you drop weight. If you baseline in a day or two and then drop several pounds increase the number of hours (and number carbs) of your refeed the next week.
Only 6 hours? lol. I would have thought spreading the same amount of carbs over the day would be better for minimal fat gain but I've never tried it any other way so no harm in trying and seeing how it goes.

OK so I guess I would do that right before or after my workout. Lets say I start at 8am and go to 2pm, what do I eat the rest of the day? Just go back to my protein+fat meals a few hours later?

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Measurements can trick you just as much as your eyes can. If you really want an unbiased opinion on your progress pics post them up and see what the board thinks about your progress. Are you dieting just to be a certain weight/bf% or to look a certain way? I'm guessing it's to look a certain way so the measurements are just arbitrary markers of progress. The accuracy of the calipers may be horribly inconsistent too depending on who is running them.
Those are good points. I was looking at Saturdays pic compared to one in March and I noticed a good difference (fuller and leaner, looked more "powerful" if that makes sense). As I said though it was after a workout but last nights pic was also an improvement, just slightly less full. Not much difference from pics in the last month or so though.

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Old 06-18-2009, 03:14 PM   #18
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God, now I can start to relate to how DC feels about his stuff being bastardized. lol

A few things:
Lyle McDonald doesn't have anything to do with my refeeding so whatever he says in reference to my refeeds, disregard, unless he says "Skip is a badass" and then you can listen to that but only that.

You don't spread out the same carb intake over the day. That is the very reason I had to start going with hours instead of meals because when I was saying 3 or 4 meals that should take 6 or 8 or so hours, it was taking all day from dawn to dusk and I only found this out after some clients weren't progressing for some reason after refeeds.

You get as much as you can comfortably get in that time frame for a refeed. You don't go easy because "you haven't seen me eat". Please. Like I haven't heard it all and like I can't eat myself. Trust me, you won't out eat the clients I have already have over the years do this so nothing is going to surprise me. Myth doesn't surprise me and neither did Brock so if they didn't, trust me, you won't either. Eat and quit being a pussy thinking you are going to get fat. Hell, you just got done saying how "small" you were. Make up your mind. lol

It is not a hard and fast rule that you HAVE to baseline by Wednesday. Again, some of the things I am posting about are getting carved into stone and I don't like it. USUALLY you will baseline by Wednesday but I have had guys and still do that will not baseline until Saturday or even as late as Sunday morning and be down a couple pounds. Baselining is what matters, not as much when. If you are looking to get leaner then you want to baseline and then drop below that and, again, the timing isn't anywhere near as important as that it simply happens.

For the record, I have never set any percentage parameters for how long or how much a refeed should be. Boondock stated a certain number for percentage of bodyfat but I have never done that. I am sure he was making a point and that is fine but don't take that as something that I said because I didn't.

Also, size has NOTHING to do with the size or length of a refeed. I have had many, many figure competitors refeeding all day long and I can think of a few that could out eat most of you guys reading this - BigBeesBabe is one. I swear her leg is hollow as she out ate myself and BigBee after the show in Charleston on SEVERAL occasions.

Keep in mind that you are going to get the basics from threads like this. The detailed stuff come directly from me and if you want it customized and as efficient as possible for YOU, you should work with me.

Skip
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
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For the record, I have never set any percentage parameters for how long or how much a refeed should be. Boondock stated a certain number for percentage of bodyfat but I have never done that. I am sure he was making a point and that is fine but don't take that as something that I said because I didn't.
Didn't mean for that to come across as something you said Skip. I was just making the point that if his bodyfat percentage is closer to 20% the 10% he may want to start with smaller refeed day and increase it as you get leaner and leaner. If that's not necessarily correct I'm always up to learn something new!
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:28 PM   #20
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It isn't bad advice, I am just saying that I didn't set those numbers, you did. Someone in a couple months on another board will be saying "Skip said ....." lol

Skip
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:30 PM   #21
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:41 PM   #22
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It isn't bad advice, I am just saying that I didn't set those numbers, you did. Someone in a couple months on another board will be saying "Skip said ....." lol

Skip
Touche lol. Have you got your BCAA protocol for this offseason worked out yet?
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Old 06-18-2009, 04:06 PM   #23
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Hey Skip do you think adding in BCAA's, extra Leucine, or creatine on a refeed would be beneficial?
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Old 06-18-2009, 04:24 PM   #24
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Wow thanks for the reply Skip! There's a lot there so I'll put my responses in bold.

By the way I didn't actually get my refeed ideas from what you've written (I haven't seen much other than a little about skiploading) so these ideas were coming from other sources, not me bastadizing what you said

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God, now I can start to relate to how DC feels about his stuff being bastardized. lol

A few things:
Lyle McDonald doesn't have anything to do with my refeeding so whatever he says in reference to my refeeds, disregard, unless he says "Skip is a badass" and then you can listen to that but only that.

You don't spread out the same carb intake over the day. That is the very reason I had to start going with hours instead of meals because when I was saying 3 or 4 meals that should take 6 or 8 or so hours, it was taking all day from dawn to dusk and I only found this out after some clients weren't progressing for some reason after refeeds.

You get as much as you can comfortably get in that time frame for a refeed. You don't go easy because "you haven't seen me eat". Please. Like I haven't heard it all and like I can't eat myself. Trust me, you won't out eat the clients I have already have over the years do this so nothing is going to surprise me. Myth doesn't surprise me and neither did Brock so if they didn't, trust me, you won't either. Eat and quit being a pussy thinking you are going to get fat. Hell, you just got done saying how "small" you were. Make up your mind. lol

Lol I have no problem eating a ton (though your right, I'm positive it wouldn't surprise you). I just wasn't sure whether I could. This saturday I'll set aside 6 hours and eat a ton of low fat carbs until I start feeling uncomfortable then I'll wait a little while and keep going until the 6 hours is up. I'm guessing it'll be about 800-1000g carbs if thats how I do it.

Should I begin before or after my workout?


It is not a hard and fast rule that you HAVE to baseline by Wednesday. Again, some of the things I am posting about are getting carved into stone and I don't like it. USUALLY you will baseline by Wednesday but I have had guys and still do that will not baseline until Saturday or even as late as Sunday morning and be down a couple pounds. Baselining is what matters, not as much when. If you are looking to get leaner then you want to baseline and then drop below that and, again, the timing isn't anywhere near as important as that it simply happens.

OK well I'm guessing it'll be 1+ pound by Saturday so thats good I assume.

For the record, I have never set any percentage parameters for how long or how much a refeed should be. Boondock stated a certain number for percentage of bodyfat but I have never done that. I am sure he was making a point and that is fine but don't take that as something that I said because I didn't.

Also, size has NOTHING to do with the size or length of a refeed. I have had many, many figure competitors refeeding all day long and I can think of a few that could out eat most of you guys reading this - BigBeesBabe is one. I swear her leg is hollow as she out ate myself and BigBee after the show in Charleston on SEVERAL occasions.

I was basically going by the fact that I'm not only not very big (even though I have about 13.5%bf but more from the fact that I used to be fat and gain fat easily. I get what you mean though, I've seen some real carb freaks lol.

Keep in mind that you are going to get the basics from threads like this. The detailed stuff come directly from me and if you want it customized and as efficient as possible for YOU, you should work with me.

Skip

I'd love to, unfortunately I'm a poor kid who just got a call from a friend that my "company" I work at just got shut down, so no spare money unfortunately. If your still doing this in 10 years I'd definitely like to hire you for my first show


OK so guys last things,
-after these 6 hours (say ending around 2-3) do I just have 1-2 more protein + fat meals later in the day?
-Should I start before or after my workout?

Thanks


By the way I want to thank everyone who's helped out, I really didn't expect to get this much help so fast. Thanks again.
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Old 06-18-2009, 04:41 PM   #25
MDur8
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SKip do you still gauge the refeeds by hours in the offseason as well?
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