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Old 10-16-2007, 06:18 PM   #1
aLegend
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What you think about soy products?

hey guys....
today i was at supermarket and I thought I should try out this soy milk.
Looked good for an "good night shake" (combined with some protein powder) as it has only 0,7% carbs.
i also bought some TOFU, which I ate with my salad and it wasnt that bad.

I know that there have been studies which told that it increases estrogen levels but newest studies show that these levels dont rise, they decrease.

I thought about using this milk for my good night shakes as it tastes much better then with water.

So what you think about this stuff?
anyone here uses it regularly?
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:36 PM   #2
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Im writing my last reasearch paper of my bachellors on that very topic. I'd advise picking up a book called The Whole Soy Story, by Kaayla Daniels. Or just read the short and skinny here:

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459516
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle....e=body_87prote
http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=461709


I won't get within a mile of the stuff anymore but it IS in almost everything, even canned tuna, so I figure I'll just get the LEAST amount of it I can. Prostate cancer anyone? Good luck!
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Old 10-16-2007, 09:26 PM   #3
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i would love to here was skip or randy or one of the experts have to say about this. I keep hearing such mixed things about it.
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:21 PM   #4
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i'll stick to my dead animal, thanks.
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:30 PM   #5
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I happen to drink light silk soymilk and love it. Good for the heart also.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:45 AM   #6
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ive heard soy is pushed so heavily because it is extremly cheap to produce, but doesnt really offer anything nutritionally. i know soy protein has just about the worst bioavalability in the world as well.

also from real world expierence ive never met a jacked guy that takes a lot of soy products but ive met a lot of 'skinny fat' runners who tell me soy is amazing and ive met a lot of small hippies telling me soy is superior to fish or beef.

also look at cultures that depend on soy as a common food, i dont believe they are known for being big or producing athletes, as a matter of fact i believe this helps my first point about cost becuase if you do look at the cultures that learned to depend opun soy it was usually because of economic downfall at some point in their history and they never changed afer that.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5luke2 View Post
ive heard soy is pushed so heavily because it is extremly cheap to produce, but doesnt really offer anything nutritionally. i know soy protein has just about the worst bioavalability in the world as well.

also from real world expierence ive never met a jacked guy that takes a lot of soy products but ive met a lot of 'skinny fat' runners who tell me soy is amazing and ive met a lot of small hippies telling me soy is superior to fish or beef.

also look at cultures that depend on soy as a common food, i dont believe they are known for being big or producing athletes, as a matter of fact i believe this helps my first point about cost becuase if you do look at the cultures that learned to depend opun soy it was usually because of economic downfall at some point in their history and they never changed afer that.
I've heard the same shit too. All I know is that soy milk taste like asshole to me and I will never eat anything that uses soy as a substitute for meats and other proteins. Tofu used in alot of asian foods and it can taste good slathered with all those sauces but not so good plain. Just my fucking opinion though.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:02 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aLegend View Post
hey guys....
today i was at supermarket and I thought I should try out this soy milk.
Looked good for an "good night shake" (combined with some protein powder) as it has only 0,7% carbs.
i also bought some TOFU, which I ate with my salad and it wasnt that bad.

I know that there have been studies which told that it increases estrogen levels but newest studies show that these levels dont rise, they decrease.

I thought about using this milk for my good night shakes as it tastes much better then with water.

So what you think about this stuff?
anyone here uses it regularly?
i use about 1/2cup of it nightly with my gemma and cottage cheese and nuts, its awesome!

1/2 cup of soy milk is only 4g protein, which clearly isn't enough to increase estrogen
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:19 AM   #9
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hmm thats what I thought to happen
lots of pros and cons when it comes to soy.

I recently read a study about whey isolate VS Whey/Soy Isolate

It showed that a combination of both keeps testo even higher then whey alone, also the estradiol ratio is better when using a whey/soy isolate

I could paste it here but its in german....
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:56 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aLegend View Post

I recently read a study about whey isolate VS Whey/Soy Isolate

It showed that a combination of both keeps testo even higher then whey alone, also the estradiol ratio is better when using a whey/soy isolate

....
you should compare that study with another one about wpi/eggprotein/micellarcasein.

whey itself is not such a good choice for various reasons. get it in the morning with anotherprotein pre and postworkout.

could you post the link with study!?
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:58 AM   #11
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the first three things which come to my mind.

- soy is rich in phytoestrogen

- soy is rich in phytates

- soy is a plantprotein

if you have some every once in while, ok, but too often will probably hurt your body (depending on individual health/body)
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Old 10-17-2007, 08:02 AM   #12
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i think soy may be not that good as protein source
but when it comes to soy isolate I think it can be a good source of protein (when its combined with other proteins e.g. whey)

@USZLA
here is the link
https://www.peak.ag/catalog/wissen.php?nr=52

what you recommend pre/post workout if not wpi alone?
and which wpi you recommend in general? (dont say trueprotein....im from germany an shipping is too expensive)

what about UN ISOCOOL ?

Last edited by aLegend; 10-17-2007 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 10-17-2007, 08:18 AM   #13
bhman6
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tofu tastes like rubber

soy milk isn't milk, it's juice

soy protein powder isn't as good as whey, but still has its uses

I'm not a fan
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Old 10-17-2007, 08:48 AM   #14
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here is the abstract for that study which apparently shows no decrease in testosterone:

''J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Jul 23;4(1):4.

Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones.

Kalman D, Feldman S, Martinez M, Krieger DR, Tallon MJ.

Miami Research Associates, Nutrition/Endocrinology Division, Miami, Florida, USA. [email protected].

ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Evidence suggests an inverse relationship between soy protein intake and serum concentrations of male sex hormones. Anecdotal evidence indicates that these alterations in serum sex hormones may attenuate changes in lean body mass following resistance training. However, little empirical data exists regarding the effects of soy and milk-based proteins on circulating androgens and exercise induced body composition changes. METHODS: For 12 weeks 20 subjects were supplemented with 50 g per day of one of four different protein sources (Soy concentrate; Soy isolate; Soy isolate and whey blend, and Whey blend only) in combination with a resistance-training program. Body composition, testosterone, estradiol and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured at baseline and week 12. RESULTS: Protein supplementation resulted in a significant increase in lean body mass independent of protein source (0.5 +/- 1.1 and 0.9 +/- 1.4 kg, p = 0.006, p = 0.007). No significant differences were observed between groups for total and free testosterone, SHBG, percentage body fat, BMI or body weight. The Testosterone/Estradiol ratio increased across all groups (+13.4, p = 0.005) and estradiol decreased (p = 0.002). Within group analysis showed significant increases in the Testosterone/Estradiol ratio in soy isolate + whey blend group (+16.3, p = 0.030). Estradiol was significantly lower in the whey blend group (-9.1 +/- 8.7 pg/ml, p = 0.033). CONCLUSION: This investigation shows that 12 week supplementation with soy protein does not decrease serum testosterone or inhibit lean body mass changes in subjects engaged in a resistance exercise program.

PMID: 17908338 [PubMed - in process]''
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Old 10-17-2007, 09:00 AM   #15
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this study shows what I also posted above
the whey/soy Isolate mixture lead to the biggest gains of lean body mass and additionally it doesnt increase estrogene levels.
So why should I stick to a whey only solution pre/post workout?
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Old 10-17-2007, 09:59 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante'sDisciple View Post
i use about 1/2cup of it nightly with my gemma and cottage cheese and nuts, its awesome!

1/2 cup of soy milk is only 4g protein, which clearly isn't enough to increase estrogen
It's not the protein to be concerned of. Its the little nasties that come with it. Namely the isoflavones (estrogens!), trypsin inhibitors (which prevent the digestion of protein, and overwork your pancreas) and saponins, which along with the isoflavones can wreak havoc on your thyroid.

Oh and that article in the new FLEX (I picked it up for the DC article, lol) about how good soy is for bodybuilders makes me sick! All of the studies they quoted are short term 12weeks or less. Obviously it takes a little while to overload the organs of the body (IE: HPTA, Thyorid, pancreas) so these studies would not show the mal-effects of the soy they are ingesting.

There is research supporting both sides of the story. However when you look at the research that is 'pro-soy' many of it is misleading (ie: the researchers came to crummy conclusions in the abstract that don't show up well in the research) and often times sponsored by the companies that make soy products (ie: supplement companies, and Nestle.)

Sorry if im a blow hard, I just like to get the right information into peoples hands on this subject, because Ive seen first hand what it can do to people. I used to eat alot of tofu, so don't think I'm just an anti-hippie kinda guy (ok mabye i am! lol) Just make sure you educate yourself on the product before you decide whether of not to put it in YOUR body. Just think, you wouldnt buy the hot new supplement on the market w/o looking into what its all about either.

Hope this can help, I know I'm a pain in the ass
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Old 10-17-2007, 06:41 PM   #17
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i use light soy once at night with my DC night mix as a "reward" . I use H20 to mix all my other shakes during the day. I do like the flavor after a long day of dieting. I cant take the effect milk has on my stomach ( nor can my fiance and kid) so milk isnt really a option for me .
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Old 10-19-2007, 05:47 AM   #18
TheWolverine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aLegend View Post
i think soy may be not that good as protein source
but when it comes to soy isolate I think it can be a good source of protein (when its combined with other proteins e.g. whey)

@USZLA
here is the link
https://www.peak.ag/catalog/wissen.php?nr=52

what you recommend pre/post workout if not wpi alone?
and which wpi you recommend in general? (dont say trueprotein....im from germany an shipping is too expensive)

what about UN ISOCOOL ?
i tried isocool. it tastes a lil weird. the label says its ultrafiltrated, but its has zero carbs, zero fat. i dont know too much about proteinpowderproduction. is it ionxchange whey? why there are no carbs/fat? maybe there is a lower bioavailibilty!? at least it does tase weird.

isopreme is just as good. 35g contain 30g protein 1.6 carbs 0.4 fat. thats the wpi i use. the cheapest highquality protein available. (ich wohne auch in dtl)

i do think wpi is a good choice pre and post workout (depending on your regimen)

i ve read a few studies comparing whey with whey/casein. the studies say w/c better pwo. but in those studies they donmt eat for 4-8 hours pwo. the whey will be thropugh your system in less than 2 hours. for the rest of the time your body has to break down muscle to fuel proteinsyntheis, regulate bloodsugarlevels, etc.
in case you get whey/carb pwo eat a solid meal 45-60 mins later (as suggested in every issue of flex mag). this will be superior to the wheycasein.

as far as mrps go i choose wpi/egg/micellarcasein

pwo i get waxy maize/aminos pwo, 15min later wpi/rice, another hour later chicken/rice/veggies every day i workout.

(i case tp (shipping/taxes/customsregulations) is too expensive/unsafe for you, write me a pn and i ll tell you were to get most of the stuff within europe)

Last edited by TheWolverine; 10-19-2007 at 05:50 AM.
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Old 10-19-2007, 05:53 AM   #19
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as far as the study goes, this is just a summary, not the actual study.

i do know the company who published the study (they have various products which are "augenwischerei").

are they the only company in germany who sells a wpi/soy mix?
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:14 PM   #20
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@USZLA you got a PM
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