Arms question... ****moved by Dante because I want the doggpound to see the 2nd page

[Doberman]

Lots of good info on here. Has anyone cut out arm work and seen what kind of results they've gotten?

[Ultraflexed]

Originally Posted by Ultraflexed

Been doing that routine dante suggested for ced
The only part thats not killing me is biceps
Ive done both routine but biceps dont feel like ive thrashed them
Although ive put max effort
Maybe longer negatives like 5 secs instead of 4 and maybe heavier warm ups and maybe raise the weight on the one working set currently moved up to 90lb, could go alot heavier but want to keep form flawless especially for negatives, maybe ill try the 110lb ez bar next week.

The one time my biceps felt thrashed is when I did three warm up sets of 21's with the 50 an 60lb barbell then did rest pause dumbell preacher curls followed by rest pause drag curl

I didnt stick with doing it like that because I wanted to do it how dante suggested, I am getting stronger but I want to get the most out of the one working set for biceps, everything else like shoulders and triceps have destroyed me.

Any suggestions would be great

By the way my stats
African american/ height 5'10.5/weight:203/ bf:8.5 -9

Bump for help

[Doberman]

How old are you and how long have you been training?

[Ultraflexed]

Originally Posted by Doberman

How old are you and how long have you been training?

I compete npc, three shows, 2 major state shows placed 9th and 3rd (middle weight)
Seriously trainning since 2009, 30years old

Current goal: offseason training to win 2013 mr.cal as light heavy

as of right now doing a mini cut to get back under 8% then ill just bulking back up from august to jan then start preconest. Ive been leaning out adjusting macros only, no cardio its been working well hope thats enough info

[woodbear]

another thing about rep speed... I just saw the Jason wojo vid again, about my regular rep speed, controlled. I kinda like this triceps movement too, done them alot actually.. No one I train with will join me, everyone feels they are awkward.. but they take a few sessions to like.. but once you find the groove, they are really good. REally good..

Btw. I have not seen one bodybuilding video, atleast not with a pro, on most sites, where anyone does 3-4 second negativs... This is about as slow as it gets...

[Doberman]

I haven't seen it, but from what you said it seems that the Cedric program increases frequency of arm training. Correct me if I read wrong. I don't train DC currently, but I have seen benefits with other forms of training when people gave their arms a break for a couple weeks and really pushed on the compound lifts. This is the hardest thing to do for most trainees because it is so counter-intuitive, but I've seen people gain 1/2-1/4 inch in two months by not doing anything. And these were people that were stuck and they weren't doing anything! Now obviously that won't last, but the point is that ramping up volume and intensity do work, but it probably is best to cycle down at some point as well. Like I said, Although I have read a ton about DC I'm not a DC expert. Homonunculus would be the best person to answer your question, but I hadn't seen any answers so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

One other thing. A lot of people are not pleased with certain bodyparts, but sometimes it is more a matter of conditioning. I know I was obsessed with my calves and I have gotten them to improve greatly, but once I nailed my conditioning they looked twice as big as they did prior. Throw up some pics so we can see if your arms really look like something you need to focus on. Arms are something that we all subconsciously want to make HUGE, but sometimes you need an outside opinion. They might be fine. It's like a hot chick saying, "Do I look fat."

[mentalflex]

Originally Posted by Ultraflexed

Bump for help
Been doing that routine dante suggested for ced
The only part thats not killing me is biceps
Ive done both routine but biceps dont feel like ive thrashed them
Although ive put max effort
Maybe longer negatives like 5 secs instead of 4 and maybe heavier warm ups and maybe raise the weight on the one working set currently moved up to 90lb, could go alot heavier but want to keep form flawless especially for negatives, maybe ill try the 110lb ez bar next week.

The one time my biceps felt thrashed is when I did three warm up sets of 21's with the 50 an 60lb barbell then did rest pause dumbell preacher curls followed by rest pause drag curl

I didnt stick with doing it like that because I wanted to do it how dante suggested, I am getting stronger but I want to get the most out of the one working set for biceps, everything else like shoulders and triceps have destroyed me.

Any suggestions would be great

By the way my stats
African american/ height 5'10.5/weight:203/ bf:8.5 -9

Originally Posted by Ultraflexed

I compete npc, three shows, 2 major state shows placed 9th and 3rd (middle weight)
Seriously trainning since 2009, 30years old

Current goal: offseason training to win 2013 mr.cal as light heavy

as of right now doing a mini cut to get back under 8% then ill just bulking back up from august to jan then start preconest. Ive been leaning out adjusting macros only, no cardio its been working well hope thats enough info

Are you doing DC training or simply using Dante's routine to bring up arms (Biceps routine quoted below)? Based on what I highlighted in your post, it seems you are doing the RP set for biceps, however Dante's program for Ced also has a Widowmaker set in it. Also note, that Dante created this FOR CED, so you are going to have to find what works for you in terms of exercises (or hire Homon, Dante's approved DC coach).

Also how long have you been doing this program and how has your diet been during the whole time you have been doing this? If you are not eating enough (as it seems you are in a mini-cut as you note) then you may not be experiencing the results from this program that you would like.

Although you say your biceps do not feel "thrashed," how are they responding?

Another question: Typically, with DC training, a static hold is done at the conclusion of the RP set for a maximum hold. Are you doing this static hold?

Do you have any pictures you can post so we can see your bicep development as compared to the rest of your body?

Originally Posted by Doggcrapp

*****Biceps......this was in response to Ced's emails after i asked him what he was currently doing and some other pertinent questions......I talk in caps in response so the person knows who is who by my large letters compared to his lower case font. I didnt like some of the exercises he was choosing because i dont think they lent itself to what he was after

Again its jumbled because im cutting and pasting my response to him.....


I LOOK AT THINGS LIKE THIS--IF THE BREAD AND BUTTER MOVEMENTS HAVENT GOTTEN
IT DONE IN THE LAST 5-10 YEARS THEN YOU KIND OF HAVE TO GET WEIRD WITH THE
EXERCISES--IF I WAS YOU I WOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS

DAY ONE FOR BICEPS

1)STANDING ALTERNATE DUMBELL CURLS BUT WITH THUMB AND FOREFINGER PRESSED
AGAINST THE INNER PLATE AND A BIG SPACE BETWEEN YOUR PINKY SIDE OF YOUR HAND
AND THE BOTTOM PLATE (WHAT THAT DOES IS MAKE IT HARDER TO SUPINATE THE
DUMBELL = INCREASED SIZE) SO I WOULD DO ALTERNATE STANDING DUMBELL CURLS
WITH A LITTLE BODY OOMPH FOR 20 TO 25 REST PAUSED REPS....YOU START WITH THE
DUMBELL IN THE HAMMER POSITION AND SUPINATE AND CURL IT UPWARD

WHICH IS (AFTER WARMING UP THRU PROGRESSIVE SETS) YOU DO 12-15 REPS TO
FAILURE (PUT DUMBELLS DOWN AND TAKE 15 DEEP BREATHES) ANOTHER 6-8 TO FAILURE
(THEN AGAIN 15 DEEP BREATHES) AND THEN 3-4 TO FAILURE AGAIN

THEN I WOULD DO THESE
FOREARMS
2)REVERSE GRIP CABLE CURLS WITH ONE ARM---USE THE HANDLE THAT COMES WITH THE
CABLE CROSSOVER ATTACHEMENT. ITS ACTUALLY A ONE ARM REVERSE CURL BUT YOU
HAVE TO KEEP YOUR WRIST FROM SAGGING AT ALL AS THAT DEFEATS THE EXERCISE, SO
YOU FLEX YOUR HAND UPWARD AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MOVEMENT. AGAIN EXPLAINED
ITS ARM COMPLETELY STRAIGHT -PULLEY IS AT YOUR FEET --TENSION SHOULD BE
THERE RIGHT FROM THE START SO STEP BACK FROM PULLEY UNTIL THE TENSION IS
THERE--FLEX WRIST/HAND UPWARD AND THEN CURL TO THE TOP AND THEN RESIST 6
SECONDS DOWN---YOU WANT A STRAIGHT SET OF 12-20 REPS ON THESE---THERE IS NO
OTHER EXERCISE THAT WILL MAKE YOUR UPPER FOREARMS LARGER THAN THESE --BUT
YOU WANT TO DO SMOOTH REPS NO JERKING HERE OK---IF YOU CAN FLEX THAT
HAND/WRIST UPWARD AND THEN CURL--THESE WILL BE SO MUCH EASIER TO DO---START
WITH LIGHTER WEIGHTS WITH THIS (IT STILL WILL WORK BECAUSE ITS MUSCLES THAT
ARE NOT WORKED MUCH)--IM TALKING 10-30LBS TOPS STARTING OUT OK.... HERE IS A
VIDEO OF THEM I MADE BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE GETTING CONFUSED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf3k-...eature=related

*****sidenote for you guys in Intensemuscle....take a look at Cedrics forearms on the first page, or any DC guy Ive trained and you tell me if these didnt work

AND THEN I WOULD DO A THIRD EXERCISE....A WIDOWMAKER EXERCISE STRAIGHT
SETTED....I USE A WIDOWMAKER EXERCISE WHICH IS AN EXERCISE KIND OF LIKE THE
LATERAL MACHINE WE DID FOR SHOULDERS--HIGHER REPS THAT COME DOWN OVER TIME
AS THE WEIGHT GOES UP.....IF IT WAS ME I WOULD DO A SPIDER BENCH EZ BAR
CURL, OR HAMMER DUMBELL CURL OR PREACHER MACHINE CURL BUT I THINK FROM THE
VIDEO I SAW AND YOUR ABOVE EMAIL YOU SEEM TO LIKE THE CONCENTRATION CURL SO
I WOULD DO THAT FOR 20-25 REPS STARTING OUT BUT I WOULD USE A LITTLE BIT OF
BODY OOMPH ON THE TOUGH REPS TO GET THAT DUMBELL MOVING

THEN NEXT TIME YOU COME IN TO DO BICEPS I WOULD DO THIS

1) EZ BAR DRAG CURL --BUT I WOULD DO THESE A CERTAIN WAY OK---THIS IS HOW
IT IS DONE--WITH A NORMAL WIDTH GRIP YOU CURL THE WEIGHT UP (MAKE SURE YOUR
CHEST IS STICKING OUT AND SHOULDERS BACK) UP TO THE TOP AND THEN LET YOUR
ELBOWS DRIFT BACKWARD AND LET THE BARBELL SLIGHTLY DRAG DOWN YOUR CHEST AND
STOMACH UNTIL YOUR ARMS ARE FULLY STRAIGHT AGAIN (THEN REPEAT) ....LIKE
ALWAYS YOU DO PROGRESSIVE WARMUP SETS AND THEN HIT A HARD SET OF 20-25 REPS
REST PAUSED --THESE ARE CALLED BODY DRAGS AND THAT NEGATIVE THAT SLIGHTLY
DRAGS DOWN THE TORSO REALLY DOES ALOT OF CELLULAR DAMAGE AND REMODELING.
AGAIN CURL UP NORMALLY AND RESIST THE NEGATIVE SOFTLY DRAGGING IT SLOWLY
DOWN THE TORSO UNTIL YOUR ARMS ARE FULL STRAIGHT AND THEN CURL AGAIN

2)REVERSE GRIP CABLE CURLS AGAIN

3) THE CONCENTRATION CURL WIDOWMAKER (OR WHATEVER EXERCISE YOU CHOOSE HERE)
AGAIN

THE THIRD DAY I WOULD GO IN AND DO

1) MACHINE preacher curls(WARMUPS AND THEN A REST PAUSE SET FOR 20-25) BE
CAREFUL ON THESE--DEFINITELY DONT BOUNCE--JUST REALLY SLOW AND CONTROLLED

2) REVERSE GRIP CABLE CURLS AGAIN

3) THE CONCENTRATION CURL WIDOWMAKER (OR WHATEVER EXERCISE YOU CHOOSE HERE)

GIVE ME A DAY TO THINK ABOUT THE TRICEPS AND LOOK THRU THE PICTURES


*****sidenote to the Intensemuscle guys....normally i wouldnt pick the concentration curl widowmaker but Cedric really likes that movement (thats a 3rd of the battle) and he likes to do it with some body oomph to get the dumbell moving (thats the 2nd third of the battle) which is power groove somewhat and because he likes it and can use some body oomph the movement becomes progressive over time with weight used (last 1/3 of the battle).....would i use that movement with Betito or Dusty or Homonuncleus or Scott Mcd or anyone else ..... probably not)

[Ultraflexed]

hey mentalflex, thanks for the reponse.

ok first off, im doing the 2 way split, all DC style and suggested excercises i was posted in the stickie.

the only thing thats different is the shoulder and bi/triceps routine that Dante post for cedric.
you asked why did i incorporate those excercises
they looked very challenging and like Ced, my delts and arms needed to make considerable improvement.

as for genetics for my arms, well i would say i have full bicep(runs into the forearm) insertions and standard (longer head dominate) tricep intertions. from studying pics i think Ced is the same way as with most people who are not roelly and Phil heath who have thick medial heads that insert all the way into elbow. Cedric's arms have made a dramatic jump due to making his long head thicker and fuller so that they push out more, which is due to all the reverse grip and overhand grip close grip bench and hammer strength dips dante had him do which puts and incredible about of stress on the long head.

so im figuaring by the end of the year i should see great improvements as well, in contest shape my arms tape out at 17 1/2.

here some pics of me from 210 about 2years ago a couple weeks out from my first show im around 180-179 in these pics depleted from doing keto diet, the one pic in the red trunk is after i carbed up after prejuding (which i screwed up) but it was my first show i did prep by myself



with exception of biceps, i feel it everything, especially my chest ive made the biggest strength gains in only 2 weeks hitting the 315 for 8 reps with 4 sec negatives about 13 total reps, moved up to 405 with my rack deadlifts, shoulders have been throbbing from that routine dante made for cedric, but as far as biceps its a different story, maybe because when i started working out the only thing i use to train is biceps and chest damn near three times a week..lol. yea stupid, so maybe my arms are my strong from years of that. so just my biceps to respond the same way im responding to the other excercises, im getting stronger their no doubt but i dont feel the fullness and density like everywhere else, its just the feel im after right now, no soreness at all in the biceps so i think im doing something wrong, im not expecting masss gains this soon of course i just want to make sure i do everything correctly

as far as my diet
protein:330 carbs:225 fat:20-40 mini cut no cardio at all
next month will be the last month of my mini cut then back to off season for the rest of the year i just wanna get to 7% and not go over 9% when i started bulking by back up. so by jan 2013 i wanna be sitting at 215 at 10% max before i start cutting for the Mr.Cal ill be using DC when i start bulking again

thanx again for responses

[mentalflex]

Hoping Scott (Homonunculus) gets in on this....

Looking at your overall physique, from the waist up at least, judging by your back shot, it appears that the solution to growing your arms may simply to be just add size overall. Your chest looks very developed, and I think overpowers the rest of your body, so while you may be thinking your arms are your weak point, they are actually proportionate to the rest of your physique. By staying with a two-way split and eating a ton and building mounds of muscle, then you will be able to see where your weak point are, but until you reach an advanced level of development (like Cedric) then you really don't know what your true weak points are.

It took a while for this to sink into my head, since I felt I had glaring weaknesses as well, but the truth is that I am nowhere near the level of someone like Cedric, and had no business trying to bring up weak points when I lack size all over. I know that before I start working on bringing up specific areas I need to focus on maintaining balance in my training so that I grow proportionately and can see where my weak points are when I do reach (hopefully) an advanced level.

I think you would be better served staying with a standard two-way and eating a ton, while also incorporating cardio to keep bodyfat low. If you bring up your back I believe that you will begin to see improvements in your biceps as well from the progression of moving heavy weights for your back.

This begs the question, what exercises are you doing for back and chest (You are doing all of the same exercises as Cedric for bis, tris and shoulders, correct?)?

I think adjusting your exercise selection would make it work better for your goals.

Another thing may be to lighten up your weights and take the reps very slow on the negative and possibly try adjusting the rep ranges. Based on what you said about doing 21's, you may need to up your rep range for bis to maybe a 20-30RP range.

I know this is probably not the advice you wanted to hear, but most us, like 99.9%, will never reach the level of Cedric and sometimes it takes a little reality check to realize that although you may have a great physique, it is not advanced as you thought. Then there is the almight gentics bomb. Oh genetics, no matter how much you try, genetics will limit you. You can't change your muscle insertions and you can only do so much with muscle bellies of a certain size. F-genetics...

Originally Posted by Ultraflexed

hey mentalflex, thanks for the reponse.

ok first off, im doing the 2 way split, all DC style and suggested excercises i was posted in the stickie.

the only thing thats different is the shoulder and bi/triceps routine that Dante post for cedric.
you asked why did i incorporate those excercises
they looked very challenging and like Ced, my delts and arms needed to make considerable improvement.

as for genetics for my arms, well i would say i have full bicep(runs into the forearm) insertions and standard (longer head dominate) tricep intertions. from studying pics i think Ced is the same way as with most people who are not roelly and Phil heath who have thick medial heads that insert all the way into elbow. Cedric's arms have made a dramatic jump due to making his long head thicker and fuller so that they push out more, which is due to all the reverse grip and overhand grip close grip bench and hammer strength dips dante had him do which puts and incredible about of stress on the long head.

so im figuaring by the end of the year i should see great improvements as well, in contest shape my arms tape out at 17 1/2.

here some pics of me from 210 about 2years ago a couple weeks out from my first show im around 180-179 in these pics depleted from doing keto diet, the one pic in the red trunk is after i carbed up after prejuding (which i screwed up) but it was my first show i did prep by myself



with exception of biceps, i feel it everything, especially my chest ive made the biggest strength gains in only 2 weeks hitting the 315 for 8 reps with 4 sec negatives about 13 total reps, moved up to 405 with my rack deadlifts, shoulders have been throbbing from that routine dante made for cedric, but as far as biceps its a different story, maybe because when i started working out the only thing i use to train is biceps and chest damn near three times a week..lol. yea stupid, so maybe my arms are my strong from years of that. so just my biceps to respond the same way im responding to the other excercises, im getting stronger their no doubt but i dont feel the fullness and density like everywhere else, its just the feel im after right now, no soreness at all in the biceps so i think im doing something wrong, im not expecting masss gains this soon of course i just want to make sure i do everything correctly

as far as my diet
protein:330 carbs:225 fat:20-40 mini cut no cardio at all
next month will be the last month of my mini cut then back to off season for the rest of the year i just wanna get to 7% and not go over 9% when i started bulking by back up. so by jan 2013 i wanna be sitting at 215 at 10% max before i start cutting for the Mr.Cal ill be using DC when i start bulking again

thanx again for responses

[Doberman]

Great answer Mental Flex. Took the words out of my mouth. Great physique overall though. Your arms really aren't bad. I'd like to see more back pics. It appears that may be lagging a bit, but really like Mental said I'd just try to add overall size. Good job so far.

[Ultraflexed]

Thanks for the input
I used cedric as an example of arms insertions
But dont have cedric potential im more built along the lines of dexter im actually happy with all my genetics my muscles get really round
Although im 5'10 ill never step stage over 225-230 max im not too wide I dont have a large frame and thats years from now
Im thinking more 190-195 for the mr.cal next year

I dont have a problem with arm growth
My main point is if I was doing the exercise correctly to get the most out of my one set because I dont feel like my biceps have worked hard enough like the soreness I get after working other body parts

To answer the other question for back im doing rack deadlift and t bar rows
For witdh im doing wide grip pull ups/pull downs and the behind the neck pulldown Restpaused dante suggest
im really responding to doggcrapp strength wise but its too early to tell regarding mass well know the the end of the year



Thanx again for all responses

[pearlharbor1207]

Definitely not going to weigh in cuz I am not qualified, but I think I get what Ultra may be asking...

I judged my training by a blood pump for a long time. Then I started DC and it took me a minute to adjust to the fact that I was growing but my muscles didn't feel like they did when I was on more of a volume training routine. My biceps are also the one bodypart that don't seem to feel "depleted" but I think I have made the best gains with them. the word that keeps coming to mind is "counter-intuitive."

I may not be making sense, but it seems like you may be asking if you are really bombing your biceps the way you want to because they aren't feeling the same way the rest of your body is?

[DCBliever]

Originally Posted by Ultraflexed

Thanks for the input
I used cedric as an example of arms insertions
But dont have cedric potential im more built along the lines of dexter im actually happy with all my genetics my muscles get really round
Although im 5'10 ill never step stage over 225-230 max im not too wide I dont have a large frame and thats years from now
Im thinking more 190-195 for the mr.cal next year

I dont have a problem with arm growth
My main point is if I was doing the exercise correctly to get the most out of my one set because I dont feel like my biceps have worked hard enough like the soreness I get after working other body parts

To answer the other question for back im doing rack deadlift and t bar rows
For witdh im doing wide grip pull ups/pull downs and the behind the neck pulldown Restpaused dante suggest
im really responding to doggcrapp strength wise but its too early to tell regarding mass well know the the end of the year



Thanx again for all responses

PICS or it didn't happen

[Ultraflexed]

Originally Posted by DCBliever

PICS or it didn't happen

I posted pics hrs ago bro

[Ultraflexed]

Originally Posted by pearlharbor1207

Definitely not going to weigh in cuz I am not qualified, but I think I get what Ultra may be asking...

I judged my training by a blood pump for a long time. Then I started DC and it took me a minute to adjust to the fact that I was growing but my muscles didn't feel like they did when I was on more of a volume training routine. My biceps are also the one bodypart that don't seem to feel "depleted" but I think I have made the best gains with them. the word that keeps coming to mind is "counter-intuitive."

I may not be making sense, but it seems like you may be asking if you are really bombing your biceps the way you want to because they aren't feeling the same way the rest of your body is?

This is exactly what I was asking..thanx

The communication breakdown is partly my fault maybe I posted in the wrong thread which might have lead people to believe I was complaining about my arms which was not my intent. I like my arms I have great bi insertion with a good peak, triceps are just standard my forearmd do need help.lol
But I feel my arms have great potential I just wanted to make sure im doing everything correctly as far as getting the most out of them when I train them so I can take it to the next level

[mentalflex]

Originally Posted by Ultraflexed

This is exactly what I was asking..thanx

The communication breakdown is partly my fault maybe I posted in the wrong thread which might have lead people to believe I was complaining about my arms which was not my intent. I like my arms I have great bi insertion with a good peak, triceps are just standard my forearmd do need help.lol
But I feel my arms have great potential I just wanted to make sure im doing everything correctly as far as getting the most out of them when I train them so I can take it to the next level

OK, now whether you should or shouldn't be doing DC right now is another thread, so we'll leave that topic for another place and time. But I do want to add this; there is a reason it is suggested that you have AT LEAST three years of solid hard training under your belt and have tried numerous programs before using DC. You need to understand all of the intricacies of your body, be able to use one set to massacre a muscle, know your ideal rep ranges, the most effective exercises, understand the effects of external stress and your recovery ability, have a solid grasp on your diet, know how your body will respond to the stimulus you are putting on it and understand that it is not one exercise that is going to dictate your development it is how the everything in the program works together to ensure complete development.

-End Rant-

Now for your issue. So you basically just want to know why you aren't feeling the same "pain" in your biceps as your other muscles. Correct?

As pearlharbor stated, since DC isn't necessarily focused on the pump, you won't always feel that blood swole as you did with 21's.

However, what you can do to ensure you are getting the most out of your set: 1) Take it slow on the negative and allow the muscle to fully extend at the bottom of the rep
2) Hold the static contraction at the end of the set like your life depends on it. I go a little crazy on these and you might want to give this a try... Do your static (max time), if you did not go longer than 30 seconds do another static until you break 30 seconds (but don't stop at 30). ****I know this is not standard DC protocol but I really like to take the static to the extreme****
3) Experiment with various rep ranges. You might need higher reps
4) Try some new exercises, what works for Cedric might not be best for you.

[Ultraflexed]

Mentalflex thanx for answering my questions also for the recomendation for bis especially those statics holds, that reminds me of that delt machine routine dante suggested for ced that killed me..lol