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Old 06-27-2007, 11:01 AM   #1
Team Hoss
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Deadlifts=trouble for me.....very upsetting

A little about myself:
26 yrs old – 5’11” – 193lbs – approx 12% BF; I never lifted much in high school and started lifting, ignorantly of course, when I was 19-20 yrs old. I had cuff surgery a couple of yrs later and got back into the gym upon recovering. I graduated college and work forced me to give up lifting due to limited time. I started back 2.5 years ago and haven't let up since. I’d say, condensed, I’ve been in the gym for about 5-6 yrs. I've experimented with several different routines. In the beginning, I had my own routine that I would tweak according to how my body reacted. Seemed like the first 3-4 years I would be forced to take breaks due to college and work. I would return after a few months layout and have to work back to where I was previously at. Point being, the first several years were full of learning about my body, but not being able to see any long term results/conclusions.

I didn’t bother with legs much until about a year ago. I mean, I would do extensions and curls, but no presses or squats….yet I always wondered why I had trouble adding size and hitting plateaus. I always felt that presses and squats would injure my back – which I’ll explain later. Back…..whooo….never attempted deadlifts….”I don’t plan on bodybuilding, so I don’t need them……hey, why can’t I get bigger/stronger???” What an idiot I was. Besides, my grandfather, my dad, and my brother when he was 26, have all had plates and screws put in their backs. So why would I want to deadlift after almost every man in my family has been under the knife?

Well, about a year ago, I says to myself, “Self, we both know you don’t have any intention of bodybuilding, but you want to be as big/strong as genetically possible, so get in that gym where you love to escape everyday trials and be in your own world, and quit being a pussy! Quit feeling sorry for yourself and attempt a progression of changing/beating genetics and strengthen your back. Beat the odds! Stop using your back as an excuse not to squat and deadlift and start busting ass!”

So that’s what I did…..I started with good mornings and hyperextensions, then moved to light squats and deadlifts and the strength started coming right along. Little did I know that the strength gains would be throughout my body, just because of those two lifts. A year later, I don’t know what I would do without either of them. I look forward to squat days and deadlift days, whereas I used to despise them.

Two and a half months ago, I became as strong as I’ve ever been and that’s when I discovered DC Training. I felt I knew my body very well and started reading everything I could on DC. After 2 weeks of studying, I started DC and have loved every minute of it. I have progressed in all my lifts and have only switched out 2 exercises the past 8 weeks. You ever beat the log book and wonder if you cheated somehow on the lift because of the progress you’ve made? Great isn’t it!?

Well, remember how genetically f-ed up I am in my lower back. The stronger I get, the more prevalent are lower back problems. I’ve had BBers watch my form and I’ve read and studied and everything else to make sure my form is good, but problems continue. Well, Monday, I overdid it. I bumped up my deadlift 10 pounds on my first set due to hitting 9 reps on my last workout. I completed 8 reps, which was great! On rep 6 though, is when I felt it. Something gave and later than night, I could hardly move and trying to sleep was excruciating. I had to lie out of work yesterday because the pain of sitting was unbearable. I am still in pain today, but it’s somewhat tolerable, so I’m back at work. All the aleve and ibuprofen in the world is barely a relieve.

Every once and awhile, I have a spout with my lower back and this is by far the worst ever. I’ve decided that I’ve got to do something or I’m going to end up like the other men in my family. So this is where I’d like some input. Man, do deadlifts and I get along so well, but – I’m wondering if I should get rid of them. Flat BB bench is dangerous for some people, the same could be for DL and I, right? Will my strength and size gains continue is if replace them? Suppose I just knocked the weight back and continued to do them – but then I wouldn’t be recruiting muscle fibers as effectively, would that actually hinder my routine or be wasting time? Suppose I supplemented my routine with them, but then would I be overworking my back? There are several back thickness exercises I can do and I’m sure I would have to rotate DL’s out someday anyways – but suppose I do layoff them and then come back to them later and the ultimate injury occurs!? I don’t want to take that chance.

This is the way I feel: DL’s are King and I don’t want to let them go, but it’s evident that something has to be done……only “What?” is the question. In all honesty, with only personal goals at risk with lifting and not with BBing, I should prolly replace them and not risk injury. I just really, really, don’t want to give them up.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:21 AM   #2
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sounds like you need to find a good chiro or go to the doctor. as you already know your back isnt something you fuck with. now as far as exercise selection if your doing DC, which im assuming you are, you dont have to do full deads to develop a great back. barbell rows, db rows, corner rows, rack deads, and cable rows are all possible options. to minimize risk on your lower back i would go with cable rows, db rows and rack deads.

id cruise for a couple weeks to get your back fixed up w/ some chiro/PT.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:22 AM   #3
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Dump the DL's

Yes DL's can be dangerous for some people. I can't pull conventional for long periods of time because for me, pulling conventional is playing with fire. I have hurt my back constantly (luckily nothing serious yet) and no matter what form adjustments I make it doesn't help. I actually switched to Sumo DL's recently and now I can DL pain free.

Getting hurt constantly isn't gonna make you any stronger or bigger. You need to be healthy to grow... a fucked up lower back ruins too many other things.

You may want to try pulling sumo... but IMO they don't offer the same BB'ing benefits as Conventional pulling does.

Can you rack pull? If not who cares anyway... just stick to rows for back thickness.
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:01 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by boondocksmuscle View Post
sounds like you need to find a good chiro or go to the doctor. as you already know your back isnt something you fuck with. now as far as exercise selection if your doing DC, which im assuming you are, you dont have to do full deads to develop a great back. barbell rows, db rows, corner rows, rack deads, and cable rows are all possible options. to minimize risk on your lower back i would go with cable rows, db rows and rack deads.

id cruise for a couple weeks to get your back fixed up w/ some chiro/PT.
Thanks for the attention. I'm a bit of a hardass when it comes to docs of all kinds. Like I mentioned, this isn't my first rodeo with lower back probs. If I layoff for a bit, the soreness and uncomfort will subside and I can continue. I am continuing my rack deads - I really love those babys. They don't bother me - nothing bothers me except for the DL's. Right now, I have T-bar rows and rack deads and......to be determined elimitating DL's.

I will miss the indirect hitting of DL's that persuade the rest of the body to grow
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:09 PM   #5
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Dump the DL's

Yes DL's can be dangerous for some people. I can't pull conventional for long periods of time because for me, pulling conventional is playing with fire. I have hurt my back constantly (luckily nothing serious yet) and no matter what form adjustments I make it doesn't help. I actually switched to Sumo DL's recently and now I can DL pain free.

Getting hurt constantly isn't gonna make you any stronger or bigger. You need to be healthy to grow... a fucked up lower back ruins too many other things.

You may want to try pulling sumo... but IMO they don't offer the same BB'ing benefits as Conventional pulling does.

Can you rack pull? If not who cares anyway... just stick to rows for back thickness.
It's funny you bring that up, I started out pulling conventional, then went to sumo. Then went BACK to conventional. What was great, was that I transitioned back to conventional with the same weights I had been pulling with Sumo. It was a very interesting discovery.

I may try to go back to sumo, but I'm snake bit man....I don't want to lose everything I've gained because of one lift. It's a long road after back surgery. It's prolly something that is inevitable for me anyways, just not right now. I agree that conventional is more beneficial, IMHO. Which may suggest that if sumo is my only option, I might as well just stick to racks and rows.
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Old 06-27-2007, 03:58 PM   #6
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This is quite the conundrum. I've always figured that one of the reasons that I've never (up until very recently) had back problems was because I always deadlifted, stretched, and worked abs to keep my core strong. You, likely being genetically predisposed to back problems, might be destroying yourself doing the very thing that seems to help me.

I'd definitely go in to see a chiro. Get a recommendation from somebody you trust. Due to a long term muscle imbalance in my legs from a knee injury, my back has recently started bothering me. I just started seeing a chiro last week, and I can't believe how much better I feel all over. I sleep way better too. It's actually pretty cool. Plus, depending on insurance, it may not cost much. I paid a one time fee of $250 and now I'm covered for life with this guy. He also has a hot little blondie who gives me 45 min deep tissue massages twice a week for free. To me, it's worth it just to have access to the massages, though I feel better all over than I have in a long time. Good luck.
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Old 06-27-2007, 06:54 PM   #7
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It's funny you bring that up, I started out pulling conventional, then went to sumo. Then went BACK to conventional. What was great, was that I transitioned back to conventional with the same weights I had been pulling with Sumo. It was a very interesting discovery.

I may try to go back to sumo, but I'm snake bit man....I don't want to lose everything I've gained because of one lift. It's a long road after back surgery. It's prolly something that is inevitable for me anyways, just not right now. I agree that conventional is more beneficial, IMHO. Which may suggest that if sumo is my only option, I might as well just stick to racks and rows.


Then stick to racks and rows man

rack pulls
tbar rows
45* rows
pendlay rows
cable rows
db rows
various machine rows
chest supported rows



sooooooooooooooooooooooo many choices for back thickness. And... you only need 3. Pick three, hit it hard, progress each week, and leave the back problems behind is what I would do in your situation.
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Old 06-27-2007, 07:07 PM   #8
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Same problem here. Do what dbcb314 says, there´s no point in fucking your back by doing a movement that you know that hurts.

Rack pulls work well for me.
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Old 06-27-2007, 07:14 PM   #9
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do you have any videos of you DL'in? you could get some great feedback from the guys on here. if not then ive got to agree with DBCB too. lots of good exercises to choose from
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Old 06-27-2007, 08:07 PM   #10
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do you have any videos of you DL'in? you could get some great feedback from the guys on here. if not then ive got to agree with DBCB too. lots of good exercises to choose from
I don't have any vidoes available and I'm certainly not going to stack the bar to hit it again just for a video.

Man, I'm at the point though, to where my form could be the best anyone has ever seen, and my genetics would still bend me over and jab me in the ass. Like I say, I've had many pros check me out....Lex Luger being one....and they all have said I'm good. (I live in Atlanta-lots of pros here-BBers & wrestlers)

Sux! I feel like dbcb314, there are so many exercises for back thickness, none of course that indirectly benefit the rest of the body, but nevertheless - thickness is the objective. I do have rack deads to look forward to...I mean, I look forward to all of them, but deads and racks are pure brute force, ya know.

Check ya later DL's.....

Hello rows!

I believe I will start back with the hyperextensions and good mornings to continue strengthening lower back. This could possibly prevent the inevitable surgery I've been genetically predisposed to.

I also have a deep tissue message set up with a friends therapist.....oh I can't wait!
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Old 06-28-2007, 11:01 AM   #11
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Could it be you have a "defect" in your back. You said its in your genetics to have a f'ed up back, don't you think there's a possibility of you having a naturally occuring defect in your back??

there are so many parts in the spine, that it could be a possibility, especially when you mention that your brother, father and grandfather all have back problems....
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Old 06-28-2007, 01:02 PM   #12
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reverse hypers 2xw will help stailize the lumbar region 3sets of 10reps. lots of high rep ab/oblique work added in is benefical as well. i have trained several folks with "bad " backs and all have either become pain free or have it greatly subside. they all pull deads and squat now.

stop pulling for now and incorporate the above suggestions. give it a month or two then start back pulling with light weight.

btw i didnt read all of your original post, it is way too long
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Old 06-28-2007, 02:47 PM   #13
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Could it be you have a "defect" in your back. You said its in your genetics to have a f'ed up back, don't you think there's a possibility of you having a naturally occuring defect in your back??

there are so many parts in the spine, that it could be a possibility, especially when you mention that your brother, father and grandfather all have back problems....
Yeah, I'm thinking defect=pour skeletal structure or weakened discs or lessened integrity throughout my whole f-ing back - point is, something in my back just isn't as strong as it should be - skeletal system wise.

As far as a defect - my spine isn't crooked or poking out. I don't walk funny and it never hurts unless I do something that it can't handle. I may just be progressing too fast for my spine, so to speak.

I remember last year when I started with 135# on the DL's just to take it easy because I was scared. That's grown to over 300# now. I got to that weight fairly quick and have only had 1 other occassions like this one.

It may be that my muscles are too weak and my spine tries to compensate thus causing problems for me. If so, then you have to look at this: If I'm beating the logbook everytime I DL, and I mean by 10# to 3 reps, and my spine continues to hurt, then I'm setting myself up for a major catastrophe with my lower back and then i'll be out of commission for 6 months - no matter if i get stronger. If my muscles couldn't do the work, then I wouldn't even be able to get it off the floor. I feel my spine and muscles aren't jiving.

Okay, so just lessen the weight and build it slowly you say. Here's the problem I see with that, correct me if I'm wrong - if I'm not recruiting the maximum muscle fibers as possible, then what good am I doing? DC is set up on rest-pause and RP is set up to recruit max fibers based on sets going to failure with minimal time between sets. So if I'm not going to failure within a rep range, then I'm just on a long term cruise. OR I could stop DL's and go to something else that I can progress on and continue building back thickness.

Per DC, "What is approved is anything you truly believe in that you can progress on exercise wise (destroy it, own it, make it your bitch)"

So there you go, DL's aren't worth risking my progressing and my goals. I've been delt a nasty hand and I'll deal with it.

I'll gladly accept other points of view. This is just the way I feel about my situation.
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Old 06-28-2007, 02:53 PM   #14
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reverse hypers 2xw will help stailize the lumbar region 3sets of 10reps. lots of high rep ab/oblique work added in is benefical as well. i have trained several folks with "bad " backs and all have either become pain free or have it greatly subside. they all pull deads and squat now.

stop pulling for now and incorporate the above suggestions. give it a month or two then start back pulling with light weight.

btw i didnt read all of your original post, it is way too long
I'm considering that, like I mentioned earlier - "I believe I will start back with the hyperextensions and good mornings to continue strengthening lower back. This could possibly prevent the inevitable surgery I've been genetically predisposed to."

Only thing is that I don't want to overtrain my back with added exercises. Not sure that the exercises you mentioned would be overtraining.

Here's the reality - I'm not sure how many more straws will break the camels back. Suppose I only have one more mulligan left? What happens if i push myself that one time and then have to give it up for 6 months?

I suppose that's something I will have to figure out I want to risk on my own. People risk career ending injuries all the time because of ailments and some succeed. Maybe I ought to pony-up and stop being a pussy. To be honest, I never though I'd make it as far as I have with DL's.
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Old 06-28-2007, 02:55 PM   #15
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reverse hypers 2xw
?

Please explain. I think I know what you're saying, but have never heard it called 'reverse.'
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Old 06-28-2007, 05:04 PM   #16
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?

Please explain. I think I know what you're saying, but have never heard it called 'reverse.'
It´s this, I think: http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=4108&tid=113

Nice movement, but you don´t find that equipment in every gym.
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Old 06-29-2007, 11:52 AM   #17
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It´s this, I think: http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=4108&tid=113

Nice movement, but you don´t find that equipment in every gym.

thats it. we have one here and i have one in storage. big diff between hypers and reverse hypers.
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Old 06-29-2007, 06:36 PM   #18
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It´s this, I think: http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=4108&tid=113

Nice movement, but you don´t find that equipment in every gym.
So, is there some type of equipment in the picture I should be looking for?
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Old 06-29-2007, 06:40 PM   #19
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thats it. we have one here and i have one in storage. big diff between hypers and reverse hypers.
It looks like fun....I haven't seen one at any of the LA Fitness's that I go to.
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Old 07-02-2007, 11:11 AM   #20
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Going through a similar situation myself. Maybe not to the entent of your injuries however. I love deads, my favourite exercise. I am very strong with them in comparison to my other lifts. About 1-2 months ago I developed a neck problem. I just let it go and just assumed it would heal itself. My girlfriends roomate is an osteopath and she rubed my back, cracked it a few times and nothing changed. I have always been and will continue to be skeptical of the value of these types of professions. Anyways, problem did not subside so went a saw a chairo. Did the same thing basically, and told me I had a very slight curve in my spine which is why my neck was hurting (basically my body was out of balance). Gave me some exercises to remedy the curve, which will only yeild a 50% improvement at best.

Neck is pretty much better now, just from rest I think, but I asked him yesterday to give me his opinon on deads in regards to the maintainence of my spine. He flat out said they were the worst exercise ever invented, they will casue great damage in the long run. I respect this guy quite a lot, he is an engineer turned chairo. So now I am not sure what path to take.
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:12 PM   #21
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He flat out said they were the worst exercise ever invented, they will casue great damage in the long run. I respect this guy quite a lot, he is an engineer turned chairo. So now I am not sure what path to take.
I believe people can be genetically held back with the skeletal system as well as the muscular system. BUT, I am also on the fence about whether I should continue DLs or not. I do somewhat believe that if I didn't rush things, then I could strengthen my lower back enough to get past my problems and push forward with great back thickness. The only thing I struggle with is if beating the log every week is too fast of a progression rate and if I don't beat the log every week, then I'll never get the results I want out of DC training because beating the log book is what it's all about.......might get there over a 10 year period, but certainly not in a couple years time.
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:15 PM   #22
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you're being stubborn man, the DLing has knocked you out once, don't let them knock you out permanently. the more you keep agrivating it, the worse it will get. just be happy you don't need surgery yet, and try to avoid that as much as possible instead of getting on a b-line straight towards a doctors knife. I stopped doing DLs cause every time I did I would hurt my back and be on the shelf for a while. please just be smart about it man, plenty of other exercises out there, and as long as you don't plan on being a pro bodybuilder of powerlifter, then don't worry about it.
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