SuperSport

Here is a really hot topic of debate-what kind of cardio do you do for lipolysis (burning fat): High intensity, low intensity, or ????

How many minutes do you excercise, and what target heart rate?

I used to do cardio in low intensity fashion, 30-45 minutes at 60%MHR (max heart rate).
After a discussion with homonunculus I learned that Hi Intensity Training is better for lipolysis-20-30 min @ 75%

What method do you use for cardio? Do you see rusults?




For the record, after some lengthy discussions with Homonunculus he revealed how he gets lean WITHOUT doing any cardio...using diet and will power. And I am going to give his plan a shot in about 6 weeks. For me cardio is about as much fun as watching cars rust......

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SuperSport

Hopefully Homonunculus can drop by and give a few details for everyone-pretty good plan IMO.

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PUMPED

I do treadmill at 3.5 but after a while I need some HIT on the precore for 20mins to get things moving again

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Anadrol

I do HIIT...

Centaur

45 min. 2 X /week at 4.0 @ 80-85% MHR...

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slide

Man...Homonunculus gets that lean by no cardio..Ive seen the pics and that is absolutely incredible. You arent joking when you say diet and will power.

Lately Ive been going about 3.6 on the tread at a mod. incline for about 25 mins. Things went well for about 3 weeks however it seems now I am at a standstill with this. Of course, this could be due to the fact that I like donuts and Taco Bell.

-slide

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homonunculus

Yell HOMO and I just come a runnin', don't I?!?! LOL.

I just use the principle that a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. I'd rather just not eat one, than take the time to expend one like a rodent on some wheel. Its a matter of thermodynamics: a kcal is a kcal.

Here's the jist:
-You need a caloric deficit to lose bodyfat: expend more than you take in.

-Wt. training is the best way to hold on to muscle when dieting. This almost means that metabolic rate is preserved.

-Long duration aerobics interferes with the gains in muscle and and strength with wt. training. The stimulus to the skeletal muscle is diabolically opposed to that of wt. training. basically the stimulus of wt. training is one to enlarge the cell by increasing contractile protein (stress is one of load), whereas the stimulus of aerobic actibity (thinking specifically of long duration) is metabolic (enhance metabolic machinery, not construct more contractile machinery and make the cell larger).

-I personally lose muscle when I do cardio, even HIIT, but lose almost none when I do no cardio and just save my resources fro the wt's. I haven't seen a scientific study testing this DIRECTLY, but I've heard it frequently from BB'er that I talk to or who post on boards. Unfortunately, there's very little in the way to studying competitive bodybuilders during pre-contest training in the scientific literature.

-YOu must maintain metabolic rate: I take a week off dieting every 4 weeks or so and eat at maintenance.

-Keep the weights high - train as heavy as possible - SAFELY - right up to show time. I simply reduce volume, not intensity (loads as well as psychological effort or perceived exertion).

-I also follow a CKD, which is another topic maybe for later in the thread. Naturally protein intake is an important issue.

So, basically, I just eat less, train harder (w/ less volume) and drop kcal to match weight and continue wt. loss as the diet progresses. The off-weeks are invaluable as a mental break as well as to restore thyroid function.

-Randy

xcelbeyond

Unless you changed, aren't you the one that stays rather lean in your "off season?" (or was that Fathead - J/K).

I believe as you that "TOO MUCH" cardio will tend to make the body shed mass and that cals in needs to match cals out.

But, in order to shed BF, you need to get your body to burn that. From what you're describing, just eating correct # of cals in conjunction with weight w.o. is adequate.

I always was under the impression that "LOW INTENSITY" cardio (~60-70% HR) would burn BF yet preserve muscle - due to the low intensity. MOST people do cardio at TOO HIGH an intensity level. Take most of the people at my work. They are all into physical fitness - we even have showers at our office. Most spend their lunch-hour beating the streets - running. Almost all have skinny legs, no upper body, and are really too big around their waist in comparison to those other dimensions.

There is one exception - that I chaulk up to his genetics. He was a national caliber distance runner that also did R&D for Nike. He's same height as me (5'6") but is a meso - has about an 18+" neck and very large thighs, esp for a distance runner.

One of these guys GETS ON MY CASE about wasting my time doing low-intensity cardio. He says to keep HR "high." He's a national-level distance bicycle racer (been to Olympics) - but is really a rail (including LOOOW BF). I'm thinking - and almost tell him - why do I want to do that; so I can look like you?!?!?

When you say you mainly eat CKD for 4 weeks than take a week off - what do you REALLY mean?!?!?! If I were to take a week off from a diet, it'd take a LOT LOOOONGER than 4 weeks to get back to where I was (would definately get fat in that long a time period).

xcel

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SuperSport

[quote]Originally posted by xcelbeyond
[b]

I always was under the impression that "LOW INTENSITY" cardio (~60-70% HR) would burn BF yet preserve muscle - due to the low intensity. MOST people do cardio at TOO HIGH an intensity level. Take most of the people at my work. They are all into physical fitness - we even have showers at our office. Most spend their lunch-hour beating the streets - running. Almost all have skinny legs, no upper body, and are really too big around their waist in comparison to those other dimensions.

Hey X,
Funny you bring this up. I too was under the assumption that low intensity was the way to go. Randy and I discussed this in depth in a thread at MC, and I even brought up the piont that Hi int would increase catabolic hormones, the whole nine yards.
Randy presented overwhelming evidence that HIT is the way to go.
One of the points Randy brought up was the post workout elevation of the metabolism from HIT, whereas there is virtually none with low int.
I am not too computer literate, but I will try to post that thread over here sometime Sunday night. I think you will find it very informative.
- SS

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Trulyhuge

I believe Dexter Jackson is about the only pro who doesn't do cardio. I was wondering if only a select few could get by w/out cardio or if it all comes down to what/when/how you eat?

TH

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homonunculus

Originally posted by xcelbeyond
Unless you changed, aren't you the one that stays rather lean in your "off season?" (or was that Fathead - J/K).
--------

Xcel, I AM FATHEAD!!! LOL.
-----
But, in order to shed BF, you need to get your body to burn that. From what you're describing, just eating correct # of cals in conjunction with weight w.o. is adequate.
---------
As long as energy intake is < output, the rest of the kcal will come from body fat (ignoring the daily variations in use of glycogen, which balance out over the long run)
-------
I always was under the impression that "LOW INTENSITY" cardio (~60-70% HR) would burn BF yet preserve muscle - due to the low intensity. MOST people do cardio at TOO HIGH an intensity level. Take most of the people at my work. They are all into physical fitness - we even have showers at our office. Most spend their lunch-hour beating the streets - running. Almost all have skinny legs, no upper body, and are really too big around their waist in comparison to those other dimensions.
-------------

They are probably running at 60-70% of max HR.

Check this out:
Tremblay A, Simoneau JA, Bouchard C. Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism. 1994 Jul;43(7):814-8.

The impact of two different modes of training on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism was investigated in young adults who were subjected to either a 20-week endurance-training (ET) program (eight men and nine women) or a 15-week high-intensity intermittent-training (HIIT) program (five men and five women). The mean estimated total energy cost of the ET program was 120.4 MJ, whereas the corresponding value for the HIIT program was 57.9 MJ. Despite its lower energy cost, the HIIT program induced a more pronounced reduction in subcutaneous adiposity compared with the ET program. When corrected for the energy cost of training, the decrease in the sum of six subcutaneous skinfolds induced by the HIIT program was ninefold greater than by the ET program. Muscle biopsies obtained in the vastus lateralis before and after training showed that both training programs increased similarly the level of the citric acid cycle enzymatic marker. On the other hand, the activity of muscle glycolytic enzymes was increased by the HIIT program, whereas a decrease was observed following the ET program. The enhancing effect of training on muscle 3-hydroxyacyl coenzyme A dehydrogenase (HADH) enzyme activity, a marker of the activity of beta-oxidation, was significantly greater after the HIIT program. In conclusion, these results reinforce the notion that for a given level of energy expenditure, vigorous exercise favors negative energy and lipid balance to a greater extent than exercise of low to moderate intensity. Moreover, the metabolic adaptations taking place in the skeletal muscle in response to the HIIT program appear to favor the process of lipid oxidation.

-----
One of these guys GETS ON MY CASE about wasting my time doing low-intensity cardio. He says to keep HR "high." He's a national-level distance bicycle racer (been to Olympics) - but is really a rail (including LOOOW BF). I'm thinking - and almost tell him - why do I want to do that; so I can look like you?!?!?
---------
The paradox is this:
-Very low intensity - like walking at an easy pace - is so low as to not provide much of a stimulus or stress on the muscles used, but will burn kcal, help with caloric deficit and help with fat loss.
-Moderate intensity - i.e., that which can be maintained for 20 min or longer - provides a stimulus that competes (and negates) that of wt. training. The studies show an interference with gains from wt. training. For me and others, this can mean a loss of muscle when dieting, despite wt. training.
-HIIT provides a complementary stimulus to that of wt. traiining (see above noted change in glycolytic enzyems) and may enhance fat oxidation during the rest of the day b/c of the enzymatic adaptations, as well as the excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (post-exercise "burn") that HIIT is famous for.
-------
When you say you mainly eat CKD for 4 weeks than take a week off - what do you REALLY mean?!?!?! If I were to take a week off from a diet, it'd take a LOT LOOOONGER than 4 weeks to get back to where I was (would definately get fat in that long a time period).
----
LOL. Nope, not a super splurge week or a cheat week. My off week is high carb, low fat, at maintenance kcal - 15kcal / lb / day. Protein the same as during the rest of diet 1.5 - 2 g / lb / day.

-Randy

slide

Randy, forgive me as Im not a very smart man , but with what was posted and hopefully I am understanding this (if not, please correct me)...low intensity cardio is ok, but from what was studied, an HIIT program is the better choice due to the stimulus complementing that of weight training as well as potentially heighten fat oxidation during the day.

So basically if one had to choose, the recommendation (based on this study) would be to adopt some type of HIIT program for better results?

I hope there isnt a test later on this...
-slide

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xcelbeyond

Thanks for the clarification Randy.

Now can someone describe what HIIT Cardio is?

xcel

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homonunculus

Slide - you got it. I'd say either do low intensity, e.g., walking on a treadmill or HIIT. I do none, however.

HIIT = High Intensity Interval (or Intermittent) Training. An example would be to sprint 100 yards, walk 200 yards, sprint, 100, walk 200, etc. until you've gone for 15 - 20 minutes. Same idea can be done on a cycle, stepper, etc. The high-intensity should be maximal or at a level that you can't maintain for longer than a 1-2 minutes.

Do the intervals right and you're one tired mofo.

Another one would be to run 20 40yd sprints, walking back to the starting line each time. THOSE are a bitch. (Yes, I did do cardio once upon a time.)

-Randy

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SweatMachine

cool-- no cardio and I'll go on a starvation diet....all my questions have been answered!~ I hate treadmills, dont mind the xtrainers so much.

Sex is a suitable substitute !!!!!!

How bout this:

20ius GH/day and 3 bouts of sex/day
Ya gotta get lean that way!

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slide

Thanks again, bro...I think I got it now. I was a Marine so I like it when things are broken down "Barney" style (as we used to say). Take care..

-slide

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homonunculus

Another very logical plan. I LIKE IT!

-R

homonunculus

No prob., Bro. You should love the HIIT.

-R

slide

Ok, one more then ...how many days per week would be recommended? Is three/four too much or just about right (Like EOD?)? I know you do none, but I dont think Im as genetically gifted as you (or even in the same category)

-slide

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homonunculus

Hey Slide,

My genetic gift is a tolerance for pain and discomfort. Its not a matter of having naturally low BF levels. I also might be someone who does well on low carbs (although it was not that way when I first started doing CKD's.)

I was talking to my folks this weekend and my Mom said that during my 1st year of life, I was in the 5th percentile on the height / weight charts - a small little guy (and I was eating). I am a mesomorph, though, just not a naturally lean one.

Another way to look at it: I don't do cardio b/c I'm not genetically gifted enough to get away with it and still hold on to muscle (and I have tried).

I would ease into the HIIT, starting with 1 x / week in place of your reg. cardio. The answer to your question will depend upon your current training volume and tolerance for more. You would work up ot about 3-4 x / week, spacing it so it doesn't interfere with leg training days or recovery. E.g., if you train legs Mon, you might do HIIT Wed, Fri and Sat.

-Randy

hardbodygrl

Heeeey Randy!!!!
I actually enjoy doing cardio, but when i added it into my last contest prep, i only did 2wks of 45min on the treadmill at a max incline. I lost about all the muscle i had in my legs. So noo more cardio for me during contest time.

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PUMPED

I have come to a point in my prep (10 weeks out) where i need to drop cardio also. my numbers are starting to drop to fast.

I wasnt loosing any LBS untill last week then I added 7days of HIT cardio and now I cant slow the drop down. LOL

HBG how you doing girl?

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xcelbeyond

It's always nice to see the beautiful people! Good to see ya HBG!

xcel

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slide

Ok, all that makes perfect sense...I guess I just had to "see" it written down. Once again, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question(s). Until next time...take care, bro.

-slide