Bulk Progress - Page 2

iron05 · 04-30-2008, 11:39 AM

it's all good geese

i think he was just messin around in a way like 'fuckin right of course red meat helps mass up'

**thenatural** · 04-30-2008, 02:43 PM

perhaps red meat everyday or damn near it

are you having any very high carb days with higher GI carbs?

MilitaryMuscle · 05-01-2008, 12:10 AM

IMHO its your test levels bro, they are low... not just low very low. Thats not even taking your free test into consideration. If your total is low then your free test if going to be very low(more than likely). Free test is what makes a bigger and "happier" muscles. You didnt list your estrodial levels either. Sounds like a unfavorable balance of T to E.

But i would add in red meat or more fats in your diet and drop carbs. Personally i dont think you need 4,000 cals, you'll just get fatter.

Heres a formula, not from me but found it works very well for most people.

A) Find individuals LBM

B) If individual has an LBM of 180, then he'd need 1800(BM) cals for the day just doing nothing

C) What is individuals level of activity?
Extremely active - BM x 1 + BM
Very active - BM x .7 + BM
Moderately active- BM x .4 + BM
Non active - BM x .2 + BM

D) Now LBM and activity level has been established . The total above represents total cals burned during the day, including training, which doesn't burn nearly as many calories as some think.
We established the individual has an LBM of 180 so his base metabolism(BM) is 1800. He is very active, so we'd add another 1260 calories to accommodate that. His total now is 3120. This is what he needs to maintain his current weight. In order to grow, you need to have a surplus in calories. 500 a day is a great starting point. That would bring the individuals caloric intake to 3620. If after two weeks, no weight gain has been recorded, add another 250 cals a day.

This formula has always worked perfectly for me and my clients. It's called simplicity. NO OVER ANALYZING....NO ROCKET SCIENCE>>>>

but bottom line is you need to get test up. Its part of your genetics to have low test but you can get them up through supplementation/diet. I guess you have to define whats natural? Since thats what you compete in. So youll have to do research on what you can and cannot use. But there are ways without AAS or HRT. First thing i would do is start incorporating a diet higher in saturated fats for while. As well as all the other healthy fat (omega 3's,6's,9's) There had been research thats saturated fats increases testosterone production in men. Cholesterol is also an important factor as well. So dont skimp on the whole eggs/red meat.

Yes, i would get a second opinion.

Goodluck man

oregonpanthers · 05-01-2008, 12:53 AM

I totaly give you mad props for the informative post. But I will note that I use a similar mathmatical model for my diet plan to bring out my needed intakes. I use macronutrient ratios against my LBM and finding those gets me my total calorie intake. So its a backwards way of what you outlined above, either way all ends up mostly equal.

I have been titrating the diet every other week based on my bodyfat and fasted weight recoreds, if I stay the same or drop then I bump the calories by 300 that week. I keep doing this as needed to keep gains coming steadily at at least a 1/2 pound a week.

I dont recall my estradiol numbers off hand so I cant speak on that. As far as using any supplements to aid in test boosting its a fine line with natural orgs bro......you cant get away with shit these days, at least in the orgs I compete in. Tribulus might be the only legal option I have there.

I will perhaps try and add in red meat 3-4 times a week as the bank allows (full time grad student and part time work that pays shit!) and even a few more egg yolks....I too have herd all about the relationship of egg yolks and red meat and the cholesteral/test increases it causes, If anyone needs to take a chance on that its me!

I need to find out now how it is I get a second opinion on the test cause I know my family doc wont go for it and I just moved up to this new city in late January so insurance might be an issue?? But your right, its worth getting it looked at cause my numbers suck!

kroxic · 05-01-2008, 03:01 PM

First I agree with the higher fats.

Second, your diet while consistent, looks too low in protein. I make a rough count of about 250 grams from your listed diet a day. I never go under 2.0 grams per lb of bodyweight except really high carb days. If I were you I would try adding in 16oz of beef and a few more scoops of protein to get closer to 400g. I help a lot of my friends with their fitness goals and all that and just looking at you the first thing that comes to my mind is, not enough protein in your diet. just my opinion.

Third I think you might want to try the higher carb days after you get settled into eating more protein.

oregonpanthers · 05-01-2008, 06:50 PM

400 grams, for real? I was told by a few guys who also compete at high caliber shows in natural orgs of which I have come to trust quite well that I was eating to much protein as a natural for my size and that was at only 300 grams. I was having some major gas issues and they reasoned my super high protein was the cause. I dropped it slowly each week till the gas issues basicly dissapeared. They said to keep the protein at the level that alleivates gas and use that as a personal marker of max protein needs.

Thats just where I am coming from?

jesus rocks · 05-01-2008, 07:00 PM

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/gain_weight.htm

do whatever it takes man.

fade · 05-01-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oregonpanthers

400 grams, for real? I was told by a few guys who also compete at high caliber shows in natural orgs of which I have come to trust quite well that I was eating to much protein as a natural for my size and that was at only 300 grams. I was having some major gas issues and they reasoned my super high protein was the cause. I dropped it slowly each week till the gas issues basicly dissapeared. They said to keep the protein at the level that alleivates gas and use that as a personal marker of max protein needs.

Thats just where I am coming from?

I always had really bad gas and I was taking in roughly 350 g of protein to 420 g of protein depending on my diet. Nothing helped it from enzymes to gas pills... I dropped carbs and with my protein at 400g a day I have absolutely no gas. Now on my refeed days with low protein its ridiculously gassy all day.

MilitaryMuscle · 05-01-2008, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oregonpanthers

400 grams, for real? I was told by a few guys who also compete at high caliber shows in natural orgs of which I have come to trust quite well that I was eating to much protein as a natural for my size and that was at only 300 grams. I was having some major gas issues and they reasoned my super high protein was the cause. I dropped it slowly each week till the gas issues basicly dissapeared. They said to keep the protein at the level that alleivates gas and use that as a personal marker of max protein needs.

Thats just where I am coming from?

no way you need 400 grams of protein bro, 206 - 26 = LBM of 180. Therefore i believe you only need 270 grams of protein. Can even go lower than that and up your other macro nutrients. But get your hormone levels fixed before anything, your just spinning your wheels otherwise. Im drop dead serious on that one.

geese_com · 05-01-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fade

I always had really bad gas and I was taking in roughly 350 g of protein to 420 g of protein depending on my diet. Nothing helped it from enzymes to gas pills... I dropped carbs and with my protein at 400g a day I have absolutely no gas. Now on my refeed days with low protein its ridiculously gassy all day.

I'm with fade on this one. During my carb-up days, you don't want to be anywhere close to me unless you're wearing a gas mask.

bigoso · 05-01-2008, 10:51 PM

gas has always been carb related for me too

oregonpanthers · 05-02-2008, 03:01 PM

As has been mentioned, I really am skidding my wheels until I fix this hormone deficiency I have going on. The major obstacle is getting a second opinion outside that of my family practitioner. I am on my familes insurance since I am still in graduate school so paying for such a thing is gonna be tough. First I have to see what clinics in La Crosse take my families carrier as an accepted provider I guess. From there I can get the 2nd opinion.

My levels being were they are put flags up for more then my muscle mass needs but for my health in general, I have read way to much research of how a guys test help him sustain just about every facet of health and maleness he could ever have....thus proving how I need to get them up now before they do start to drop for real!

**thenatural** · 05-02-2008, 04:10 PM

tell your doctor you have been feeling alot like a woman lately, and that you've been dressing in drag on the weekends, but that it is ruining your life, you are becoming suicidal, sexually disoriented, and you think that if you could just get some test treatment these urges would go away.

Guther-D · 05-02-2008, 10:01 PM

Pound of hamburger for breakfast on lift days. I stand by it. And to save your money go to Walmart Supercenters. We just got one here in alaska, but they have 1 pound packages of 93% for 3.00 each. So its a smoking deal. I dont know where you live but alaskan food prices and kinda high along with everything else.

bigoso · 05-03-2008, 01:23 AM

I understand about the wheels spinning thing...but...maybe in the meantime and in between time, some added fat to your diet could help get your levels up

oregonpanthers · 05-03-2008, 11:01 AM

While I start my search for clinics I will add more egg yolks, efa's and lean beef to my diet as possible to try and attenuate my problems through nutritional means. Thats all I am going to change for now to see if that may be the case, little changes afterall is what allows you to find the culprit to large problems.

oregonpanthers · 05-04-2008, 05:41 PM

Just wanted to throw this out there......but today I pulled 410lbs for 1 pure clean and solid rep in the floor deadlift. Thats an all time PR for this guy!

Crazy part is I did it after just 2 warm up sets at 225lbs and I did it after DB rows and close grip pull downs which I normaly do after deads to save my grip strength. Maybe it helps to prime the muscles with those lifts before doing deads? It worked today!

One note is that I did take my first trial with melatonin last night....3mg dose and I think it worked as far as putting me to sleep. Hit me pretty quickly! Woke up today feeling the same. I doubt it had any major effect on lifting performance though.

I hate having some decent numbers to sport in the gym but a physique that screams "look at me I'm a swimmer!"

oregonpanthers · 06-17-2008, 08:41 PM

Thanks to Geese I have decided to make a full return to the IM message boards. I was posting over on MD.com for a while which was great and all but it seems that the support, direction and guidance I get here is much more positive and helpfull then I have gotten at MD. I still use the MD forums almost daily but I wont be using them for logging workouts or posting pictures any longer, thats what I will be doing here. I also have several members here of which I know personaly, its great to see them here!

So without further delay here are my newest pictures from today. Note that I am not a DC trainer right now nore have been since October of 2007. I found a new training partner and we had been (although I am now solo again) doing a hybrid max strength/power training program thats done 4 days a week. I will allude to that in my log section so check that out also.

Here I am 6'1'' 207lbs and 13% bodyfat.

04-30-2008, 11:39 AM	#26
iron05 Heavyweight Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Climbing the steep mountain to the next level. Posts: 2,323	it's all good geese i think he was just messin around in a way like 'fuckin right of course red meat helps mass up' __________________ Use discount code KEG432 for that 5% discount at www.trueprotein.com "The brain can subjugate anything, even real pain." -Bruce Lee

04-30-2008, 02:43 PM	#27
thenatural Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Just around the bend. Posts: 8,756	perhaps red meat everyday or damn near it are you having any very high carb days with higher GI carbs? __________________ weight training and nutrition are two very simple endeavors. In fact, they are both primal instincts we are born with. Too many people are making this stuff way too complicated. Keep it simple and basic. It works every time. Hard work and consistency always pay big dividends. -exmgq Be Cool. Stay in School. And use the code JCK333 at your trueprotein checkout to save 5% on your entire order.

05-01-2008, 12:10 AM	#28
MilitaryMuscle Super-heavyweight Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Norfolk VA Posts: 3,776	IMHO its your test levels bro, they are low... not just low very low. Thats not even taking your free test into consideration. If your total is low then your free test if going to be very low(more than likely). Free test is what makes a bigger and "happier" muscles. You didnt list your estrodial levels either. Sounds like a unfavorable balance of T to E. But i would add in red meat or more fats in your diet and drop carbs. Personally i dont think you need 4,000 cals, you'll just get fatter. Heres a formula, not from me but found it works very well for most people. A) Find individuals LBM B) If individual has an LBM of 180, then he'd need 1800(BM) cals for the day just doing nothing C) What is individuals level of activity? Extremely active - BM x 1 + BM Very active - BM x .7 + BM Moderately active- BM x .4 + BM Non active - BM x .2 + BM D) Now LBM and activity level has been established . The total above represents total cals burned during the day, including training, which doesn't burn nearly as many calories as some think. We established the individual has an LBM of 180 so his base metabolism(BM) is 1800. He is very active, so we'd add another 1260 calories to accommodate that. His total now is 3120. This is what he needs to maintain his current weight. In order to grow, you need to have a surplus in calories. 500 a day is a great starting point. That would bring the individuals caloric intake to 3620. If after two weeks, no weight gain has been recorded, add another 250 cals a day. This formula has always worked perfectly for me and my clients. It's called simplicity. NO OVER ANALYZING....NO ROCKET SCIENCE>>>> but bottom line is you need to get test up. Its part of your genetics to have low test but you can get them up through supplementation/diet. I guess you have to define whats natural? Since thats what you compete in. So youll have to do research on what you can and cannot use. But there are ways without AAS or HRT. First thing i would do is start incorporating a diet higher in saturated fats for while. As well as all the other healthy fat (omega 3's,6's,9's) There had been research thats saturated fats increases testosterone production in men. Cholesterol is also an important factor as well. So dont skimp on the whole eggs/red meat. Yes, i would get a second opinion. Goodluck man __________________ "BBing should be a lifetime pursuit or are you are missing the point . Make that in your plans from the very begining .Take it as far as you wish [ and genetics will allow ] , but don't miss what bbing is suposed to be about .Or you really will be missing out ....." - IABADMAN Use JSB982 as your discount code at trueprotein.com and recieve 5% discount on all orders. Last edited by MilitaryMuscle : 05-01-2008 at 12:16 AM.

05-01-2008, 12:53 AM	#29
oregonpanthers Bantamweight Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 173	I totaly give you mad props for the informative post. But I will note that I use a similar mathmatical model for my diet plan to bring out my needed intakes. I use macronutrient ratios against my LBM and finding those gets me my total calorie intake. So its a backwards way of what you outlined above, either way all ends up mostly equal. I have been titrating the diet every other week based on my bodyfat and fasted weight recoreds, if I stay the same or drop then I bump the calories by 300 that week. I keep doing this as needed to keep gains coming steadily at at least a 1/2 pound a week. I dont recall my estradiol numbers off hand so I cant speak on that. As far as using any supplements to aid in test boosting its a fine line with natural orgs bro......you cant get away with shit these days, at least in the orgs I compete in. Tribulus might be the only legal option I have there. I will perhaps try and add in red meat 3-4 times a week as the bank allows (full time grad student and part time work that pays shit!) and even a few more egg yolks....I too have herd all about the relationship of egg yolks and red meat and the cholesteral/test increases it causes, If anyone needs to take a chance on that its me! I need to find out now how it is I get a second opinion on the test cause I know my family doc wont go for it and I just moved up to this new city in late January so insurance might be an issue?? But your right, its worth getting it looked at cause my numbers suck! __________________ BS, CSCS UW-La Crosse Graduate Assistant Human Performance

05-01-2008, 03:01 PM	#30
kroxic Middleweight Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 701	First I agree with the higher fats. Second, your diet while consistent, looks too low in protein. I make a rough count of about 250 grams from your listed diet a day. I never go under 2.0 grams per lb of bodyweight except really high carb days. If I were you I would try adding in 16oz of beef and a few more scoops of protein to get closer to 400g. I help a lot of my friends with their fitness goals and all that and just looking at you the first thing that comes to my mind is, not enough protein in your diet. just my opinion. Third I think you might want to try the higher carb days after you get settled into eating more protein. __________________ Trained and guided by the Banana My 2008 DC Offseason Journal Use the code ECH346 at the checkout www.TrueProtein.com and save 5% on your order

05-01-2008, 06:50 PM	#31
oregonpanthers Bantamweight Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 173	A little high? 400 grams, for real? I was told by a few guys who also compete at high caliber shows in natural orgs of which I have come to trust quite well that I was eating to much protein as a natural for my size and that was at only 300 grams. I was having some major gas issues and they reasoned my super high protein was the cause. I dropped it slowly each week till the gas issues basicly dissapeared. They said to keep the protein at the level that alleivates gas and use that as a personal marker of max protein needs. Thats just where I am coming from? __________________ BS, CSCS UW-La Crosse Graduate Assistant Human Performance

05-01-2008, 07:00 PM	#32
jesus rocks Heavyweight Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: With Mrs. JR trying to find good deals on meat Posts: 2,198	http://www.elitefts.com/documents/gain_weight.htm do whatever it takes man. __________________ There are only three reasons why you may not like the Whopper. * You hate America and your parents. * You enjoy killing puppies. * You are not awesome I would highly recommend that all first dates happen at Burger King. Order your new girl/guy a Whopper. If he or she refuses feel free to yell, "You are a lame dog killing terrosist!" TRUE PROTEIN DISCOUNT CODE: SDM333. PLEASE USE IT

05-01-2008, 10:51 PM	#36
bigoso Bantamweight Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 156	gas has always been carb related for me too

05-02-2008, 03:01 PM	#37
oregonpanthers Bantamweight Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 173	The major issue As has been mentioned, I really am skidding my wheels until I fix this hormone deficiency I have going on. The major obstacle is getting a second opinion outside that of my family practitioner. I am on my familes insurance since I am still in graduate school so paying for such a thing is gonna be tough. First I have to see what clinics in La Crosse take my families carrier as an accepted provider I guess. From there I can get the 2nd opinion. My levels being were they are put flags up for more then my muscle mass needs but for my health in general, I have read way to much research of how a guys test help him sustain just about every facet of health and maleness he could ever have....thus proving how I need to get them up now before they do start to drop for real! __________________ BS, CSCS UW-La Crosse Graduate Assistant Human Performance

05-02-2008, 04:10 PM	#38
thenatural Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Just around the bend. Posts: 8,756	tell your doctor you have been feeling alot like a woman lately, and that you've been dressing in drag on the weekends, but that it is ruining your life, you are becoming suicidal, sexually disoriented, and you think that if you could just get some test treatment these urges would go away. __________________ weight training and nutrition are two very simple endeavors. In fact, they are both primal instincts we are born with. Too many people are making this stuff way too complicated. Keep it simple and basic. It works every time. Hard work and consistency always pay big dividends. -exmgq Be Cool. Stay in School. And use the code JCK333 at your trueprotein checkout to save 5% on your entire order.

05-02-2008, 10:01 PM	#39
Guther-D Bantamweight Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Alaska Posts: 190	Pound of hamburger for breakfast on lift days. I stand by it. And to save your money go to Walmart Supercenters. We just got one here in alaska, but they have 1 pound packages of 93% for 3.00 each. So its a smoking deal. I dont know where you live but alaskan food prices and kinda high along with everything else.

05-03-2008, 01:23 AM	#40
bigoso Bantamweight Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 156	I understand about the wheels spinning thing...but...maybe in the meantime and in between time, some added fat to your diet could help get your levels up

05-03-2008, 11:01 AM	#41
oregonpanthers Bantamweight Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 173	Notes taken While I start my search for clinics I will add more egg yolks, efa's and lean beef to my diet as possible to try and attenuate my problems through nutritional means. Thats all I am going to change for now to see if that may be the case, little changes afterall is what allows you to find the culprit to large problems. __________________ BS, CSCS UW-La Crosse Graduate Assistant Human Performance

05-04-2008, 05:41 PM	#42
oregonpanthers Bantamweight Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 173	PR Today! Just wanted to throw this out there......but today I pulled 410lbs for 1 pure clean and solid rep in the floor deadlift. Thats an all time PR for this guy! Crazy part is I did it after just 2 warm up sets at 225lbs and I did it after DB rows and close grip pull downs which I normaly do after deads to save my grip strength. Maybe it helps to prime the muscles with those lifts before doing deads? It worked today! One note is that I did take my first trial with melatonin last night....3mg dose and I think it worked as far as putting me to sleep. Hit me pretty quickly! Woke up today feeling the same. I doubt it had any major effect on lifting performance though. I hate having some decent numbers to sport in the gym but a physique that screams "look at me I'm a swimmer!" __________________ BS, CSCS UW-La Crosse Graduate Assistant Human Performance

06-17-2008, 08:41 PM	#43
oregonpanthers Bantamweight Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 173	Im Back! Thanks to Geese I have decided to make a full return to the IM message boards. I was posting over on MD.com for a while which was great and all but it seems that the support, direction and guidance I get here is much more positive and helpfull then I have gotten at MD. I still use the MD forums almost daily but I wont be using them for logging workouts or posting pictures any longer, thats what I will be doing here. I also have several members here of which I know personaly, its great to see them here! So without further delay here are my newest pictures from today. Note that I am not a DC trainer right now nore have been since October of 2007. I found a new training partner and we had been (although I am now solo again) doing a hybrid max strength/power training program thats done 4 days a week. I will allude to that in my log section so check that out also. Here I am 6'1'' 207lbs and 13% bodyfat. __________________ BS, CSCS UW-La Crosse Graduate Assistant Human Performance

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