More Mass?

oregonpanthers · 07-13-2007, 05:30 PM

I planned to do two Oct shows this year but my close friends are telling me more mass is a must yet, this is upsetting but we vowed to always be hones with one another no matter what. I was going to start my diet in one week but I wanted the feedback of other here before makiing any final choices to go through or hold off and add more mass. Please be blunt and honest! Taken July 8th

6'1'' 208lbs and 22 years old at 13% bf.

dellsguy67 · 07-13-2007, 05:35 PM

IMO, you would benefit greatly from not doing dc, and not worrying about competing right now, and i would do a basic program like maybe a 5x5 to bring up your over thickness. i just think it would greatly improve the look.

that is just me...

Crimson Ghost · 07-13-2007, 05:43 PM

I agree....

You need more mass simply because of your height. If you were to diet down and I saw pictures, but didn't know how tall you were, I would guess that you're a bantam or lightweight. At 6'1" it makes it harder for you but it's def doable. I'd say take at least 1 solid year of good eating and hard training and then re-evaluate things. At your height I'd think you'd need to be a light heavy at the very minimum. I think a better goal is being a heavy/ super heavy at your height because a lot of the light heavies I see can be shorter and some really thick dudes.

dellsguy67 · 07-13-2007, 05:54 PM

my thought also was:

you could spend 12-16 weeks prepping for the show, etc....or you could spend that time gaining a solid amount of muscle, and then continue doing so until you look more dense. unless i felt i really had a shot to win my class, i would probably try to work on bringing a better package to a future show.

dellsguy67 · 07-13-2007, 05:56 PM

here is a sample:

5 x 5’s are a classic way to add size and strength and have been in popular use since the 50’s. There are many, many variations of them, some very good, some….well, not so good—at least for the average lifter. I experimented with quite a few volunteer trainees looking for a “sweet spot” that had peanty of loading, but not the crushing 3 x a week squatting/benching many of them use. Here is the basic outline:

Monday
A chin or lat pull-down using 5 x 5, 4 x 6, or 10 x 3 No rowing done this day as deadliftts follow
A curl—because, well, everyone expects them—lol.
Deadlifts 5 x 5 using either a pyramid or fixed weight. Fixed weights are better tolerated by people with good/great recovery
Ab or calf work

Wedesday
Bench press 5 x 5 using a periodized model starting light on week one working to a peak and unloading. Uses a pyramid starting light and working to a top set. Also done s a reduced ROM bench movement for 1 x 3- 3 x 4
Shoulder rep work
Tricep rep work

Friday
Rowing movement using a static weight 5 x 5—VERY demanding during the latter weeks.
Squatting using a static weight 5 x 5—VERY demanding during the latter weeks.
Glute/hams for some lifters.
Ab or calf work if desired

Sunday
Bench press using a static weight for 5 x 5
Shoulder rep work
Tricep rep work
Can do additional chest rep lift if needed.

After 3-5 weeks a deload is done for all 5 x 5’s, either reducing reps or sets. Rep work can stay the same but at my discretion may be reduced.

Simple as shit huh? Works REALLY good though. There are more variables to it than listed here in this simple description but it will give you an idea if you want to toy with it.

I also have a 3 day version that is used with people that simply don’t have time to hit the gym 4 days a week. This version has them benching 2 x a week, and squatting and deadlifting 1 x on the same day, or spread out over two different days. Both versions work well.

Shelby · 07-13-2007, 06:36 PM

Listen to these guys ^^

oregonpanthers · 07-13-2007, 11:22 PM

So you really think I should postpone the DC training and go with the 5x5 program for a while instead? I really have come to grow into the DC training although its just my 4th blast in 7 months I am really getting into it about now. The dieting and the training.

I can always come back to it I guess but ya know how hard it is for guys like us to change what we know and like to do already!

alwayshungry · 07-13-2007, 11:32 PM

I agree with the 5x5 listed above, but I went through the 3 day version and loved it. Amazing gains both in size and strength.

Yes, we know how hard it is to drop something you like to do, but this is going to be more beneficial for you than DC will right about now.

The 5x5 will stack on mass and have you ready for DC. This may take 6 months, a year or 18 months. It all depends how long your body will react to it.

I found de-loading to 3x3 (as Dells mentioned when you drop either reps or sets) and then once that stop working, reset the program (restart the program with your new 3 RM numbers).

Don't be afraid of dropping DC, in a year you will come back and know a crap load more about going hardcore and trust me, theres always the case of being able to know more about your body.

Good luck with your decision though.

Shelby · 07-13-2007, 11:33 PM

A classic powerlifting / strength background will pay off big dividends for you in the long run. Get strong, then switch to DC.

MANY guys that have been in the game for a long time wish they had done it this way.

dellsguy67 · 07-14-2007, 05:06 PM

you said to be honest, so:

i think @ your current level of mass, all you would be doing is going through the prep experience. you would diet down, do the show, and have the experience to look back on. @ 6'1" your weight class would likely have guys 4-8 inches shorter, which means they'd be a hell of a lot thicker.

if it were me in that body of yours, i would do something like a 5x5 for a long while and focus on slowly add quality size and thickness. when you have a better package ready, hire someone like skip or paradise cup, etc etc to do the work for you diet wise.

OP - based on a past thread or two, you seem to me like the kind of person who is genuinely looking for help and opinions on how to get to where you want to be.....but when people tell you what you don't really want to hear or what you don't agree w/ you respond w/ what you believe is a professional, well thought out answer that basically affirms that what you are doing IS the right thing. i really hope you stand back and assess this and make the right decision. DC hasn't exactly been a huge success for you based on a past thread, because you were doing great on volume as it was, then you dropped it for DC and made minimal gains.

i would focus on building size right now....if you are still confused or feel like you are in limbo, consider hiring someone to assist.

dellsguy67 · 07-14-2007, 05:08 PM

maybe also set some core lift #'s you want to achieve.....like a 405 squat for ____ reps, deadlift for ____ reps, etc etc.

oregonpanthers · 07-15-2007, 12:36 AM

Well then all said I believe the 5x5 program will begin on Monday and will continue on as long as the gains keeping showing up week after week. Th shows will thus be postponed as well. No point in 13 weeks of dieting only to place lower then hoped for and then have the rebound for any mass I did make this far. Im 22, why should I feel rushed at this point?

speedbacker · 07-15-2007, 12:57 AM

You shouldn't feel rushed at all. Take a couple years and put on a solid base of mass.

padge · 07-23-2007, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellsguy67

here is a sample:

5 x 5’s are a classic way to add size and strength and have been in popular use since the 50’s. There are many, many variations of them, some very good, some….well, not so good—at least for the average lifter. I experimented with quite a few volunteer trainees looking for a “sweet spot” that had peanty of loading, but not the crushing 3 x a week squatting/benching many of them use. Here is the basic outline:

Monday
A chin or lat pull-down using 5 x 5, 4 x 6, or 10 x 3 No rowing done this day as deadliftts follow
A curl—because, well, everyone expects them—lol.
Deadlifts 5 x 5 using either a pyramid or fixed weight. Fixed weights are better tolerated by people with good/great recovery
Ab or calf work

Wedesday
Bench press 5 x 5 using a periodized model starting light on week one working to a peak and unloading. Uses a pyramid starting light and working to a top set. Also done s a reduced ROM bench movement for 1 x 3- 3 x 4
Shoulder rep work
Tricep rep work

Friday
Rowing movement using a static weight 5 x 5—VERY demanding during the latter weeks.
Squatting using a static weight 5 x 5—VERY demanding during the latter weeks.
Glute/hams for some lifters.
Ab or calf work if desired

Sunday
Bench press using a static weight for 5 x 5
Shoulder rep work
Tricep rep work
Can do additional chest rep lift if needed.

After 3-5 weeks a deload is done for all 5 x 5’s, either reducing reps or sets. Rep work can stay the same but at my discretion may be reduced.

Simple as shit huh? Works REALLY good though. There are more variables to it than listed here in this simple description but it will give you an idea if you want to toy with it.

I also have a 3 day version that is used with people that simply don’t have time to hit the gym 4 days a week. This version has them benching 2 x a week, and squatting and deadlifting 1 x on the same day, or spread out over two different days. Both versions work well.

Might want to include that IronAddict developed this 5x5...

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9758

TheAuthor · 08-12-2007, 02:34 AM

Concur full heartedly with the others, at 22 you're not ready. Look elsewhere to get more mass and feel for how your body responds.

swingslammer · 08-12-2007, 06:29 AM

Man I did the math and to get down to contest shape you would have to be between 180 and 185....at 6'1" that is just too skinny at this time.
Like you said you have plenty of time....if you get up there now you will be "That Guy".....as in "Did you see that guy"......no one wants to be that guy.

Good luck on your process....keep us informed on how you are doing.

viking1 · 08-24-2007, 08:50 PM

You need more mass, lfor your height and your long arms and legs you need another 30lbs. to be competative.

oregonpanthers · 08-28-2007, 12:12 PM

I am going to swallow my pride real hard and take heed to all this advice and get my ass of the stage and in the gym or at the table for a few years. Come back at 25 when I am at my physical prime with more muscle, more thickness and more density. Things I sadly lack right now. 5 years of dieting for weight class based sports really put me a few years behind to just jump right into bodybuilding. Gonna back track and do what should have been done in the start. Sadly I have this god awfull fear of getting fat as hell and losing all my cuts and what not wich then tarnishes my image as a personal trainer and all. More bull shit then anything, all in my head mostly. But as you all know, we tend to be our own worst enemy and greatest obstacle.

As a note I am and have been on a 5x5 Bill Starr power lifting routine for 8 weeks now this week. Its all so much different then any other program I have done before that was bodybuilder oriented. Its kicking my ass but its working. My strength has never been so high before and its never improved so fast. I like!

btech · 10-01-2007, 01:04 AM

oregonpanthers - it's kinda hard to tell, but i'd be willing to bet that after some serious growing, you'd have some kickass wheels.

mattogus · 02-06-2008, 02:24 AM

im completely late but mass it up !

oregonpanthers · 02-11-2008, 11:25 PM

So after 7 weeks of offseason training and mass eating this is what I have to show for it.

Dec 24th 2007 to Feb 9th 2008

208lbs-17% to 198lbs-13% (both done by dexa scan)

6'1'' 23 years old

07-13-2007, 05:30 PM	#1
oregonpanthers Bantamweight Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 172	More Mass? I planned to do two Oct shows this year but my close friends are telling me more mass is a must yet, this is upsetting but we vowed to always be hones with one another no matter what. I was going to start my diet in one week but I wanted the feedback of other here before makiing any final choices to go through or hold off and add more mass. Please be blunt and honest! Taken July 8th 6'1'' 208lbs and 22 years old at 13% bf. __________________ BS, CSCS UW-La Crosse Graduate Assistant Human Performance

07-13-2007, 05:35 PM	#2
dellsguy67 Super-heavyweight Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5,072	IMO, you would benefit greatly from not doing dc, and not worrying about competing right now, and i would do a basic program like maybe a 5x5 to bring up your over thickness. i just think it would greatly improve the look. that is just me... __________________ To save 5% on your TrueProtein.com purchase, use discount code: DAS235 -------------------------------------- SUCCESS = CONSISTENCY X TIME - Sniffy54 -------------------------------------- "Consistency can take you a log way" - Homonunculus

07-13-2007, 05:43 PM	#3
Crimson Ghost NPC Judge Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,510	I agree.... You need more mass simply because of your height. If you were to diet down and I saw pictures, but didn't know how tall you were, I would guess that you're a bantam or lightweight. At 6'1" it makes it harder for you but it's def doable. I'd say take at least 1 solid year of good eating and hard training and then re-evaluate things. At your height I'd think you'd need to be a light heavy at the very minimum. I think a better goal is being a heavy/ super heavy at your height because a lot of the light heavies I see can be shorter and some really thick dudes. __________________ COLORADO NPC CONTEST SCHEDULE, RESULTS AND PICTURES www.jefftaylor.com

07-13-2007, 05:54 PM	#4
dellsguy67 Super-heavyweight Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5,072	my thought also was: you could spend 12-16 weeks prepping for the show, etc....or you could spend that time gaining a solid amount of muscle, and then continue doing so until you look more dense. unless i felt i really had a shot to win my class, i would probably try to work on bringing a better package to a future show. __________________ To save 5% on your TrueProtein.com purchase, use discount code: DAS235 -------------------------------------- SUCCESS = CONSISTENCY X TIME - Sniffy54 -------------------------------------- "Consistency can take you a log way" - Homonunculus

07-13-2007, 05:56 PM	#5
dellsguy67 Super-heavyweight Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5,072	here is a sample: 5 x 5’s are a classic way to add size and strength and have been in popular use since the 50’s. There are many, many variations of them, some very good, some….well, not so good—at least for the average lifter. I experimented with quite a few volunteer trainees looking for a “sweet spot” that had peanty of loading, but not the crushing 3 x a week squatting/benching many of them use. Here is the basic outline: Monday A chin or lat pull-down using 5 x 5, 4 x 6, or 10 x 3 No rowing done this day as deadliftts follow A curl—because, well, everyone expects them—lol. Deadlifts 5 x 5 using either a pyramid or fixed weight. Fixed weights are better tolerated by people with good/great recovery Ab or calf work Wedesday Bench press 5 x 5 using a periodized model starting light on week one working to a peak and unloading. Uses a pyramid starting light and working to a top set. Also done s a reduced ROM bench movement for 1 x 3- 3 x 4 Shoulder rep work Tricep rep work Friday Rowing movement using a static weight 5 x 5—VERY demanding during the latter weeks. Squatting using a static weight 5 x 5—VERY demanding during the latter weeks. Glute/hams for some lifters. Ab or calf work if desired Sunday Bench press using a static weight for 5 x 5 Shoulder rep work Tricep rep work Can do additional chest rep lift if needed. After 3-5 weeks a deload is done for all 5 x 5’s, either reducing reps or sets. Rep work can stay the same but at my discretion may be reduced. Simple as shit huh? Works REALLY good though. There are more variables to it than listed here in this simple description but it will give you an idea if you want to toy with it. I also have a 3 day version that is used with people that simply don’t have time to hit the gym 4 days a week. This version has them benching 2 x a week, and squatting and deadlifting 1 x on the same day, or spread out over two different days. Both versions work well. __________________ To save 5% on your TrueProtein.com purchase, use discount code: DAS235 -------------------------------------- SUCCESS = CONSISTENCY X TIME - Sniffy54 -------------------------------------- "Consistency can take you a log way" - Homonunculus

07-13-2007, 06:36 PM	#6
Shelby Heavyweight Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Detroit Posts: 2,255	Listen to these guys ^^ __________________ Troponin Nutritionist

07-13-2007, 11:22 PM	#7
oregonpanthers Bantamweight Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 172	So you really think I should postpone the DC training and go with the 5x5 program for a while instead? I really have come to grow into the DC training although its just my 4th blast in 7 months I am really getting into it about now. The dieting and the training. I can always come back to it I guess but ya know how hard it is for guys like us to change what we know and like to do already! __________________ BS, CSCS UW-La Crosse Graduate Assistant Human Performance

07-13-2007, 11:32 PM	#8
alwayshungry Light-heavyweight Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 884	I agree with the 5x5 listed above, but I went through the 3 day version and loved it. Amazing gains both in size and strength. Yes, we know how hard it is to drop something you like to do, but this is going to be more beneficial for you than DC will right about now. The 5x5 will stack on mass and have you ready for DC. This may take 6 months, a year or 18 months. It all depends how long your body will react to it. I found de-loading to 3x3 (as Dells mentioned when you drop either reps or sets) and then once that stop working, reset the program (restart the program with your new 3 RM numbers). Don't be afraid of dropping DC, in a year you will come back and know a crap load more about going hardcore and trust me, theres always the case of being able to know more about your body. Good luck with your decision though. __________________ eat, lift, rest & eat

07-13-2007, 11:33 PM	#9
Shelby Heavyweight Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Detroit Posts: 2,255	A classic powerlifting / strength background will pay off big dividends for you in the long run. Get strong, then switch to DC. MANY guys that have been in the game for a long time wish they had done it this way. __________________ Troponin Nutritionist

07-14-2007, 05:06 PM	#10
dellsguy67 Super-heavyweight Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5,072	you said to be honest, so: i think @ your current level of mass, all you would be doing is going through the prep experience. you would diet down, do the show, and have the experience to look back on. @ 6'1" your weight class would likely have guys 4-8 inches shorter, which means they'd be a hell of a lot thicker. if it were me in that body of yours, i would do something like a 5x5 for a long while and focus on slowly add quality size and thickness. when you have a better package ready, hire someone like skip or paradise cup, etc etc to do the work for you diet wise. OP - based on a past thread or two, you seem to me like the kind of person who is genuinely looking for help and opinions on how to get to where you want to be.....but when people tell you what you don't really want to hear or what you don't agree w/ you respond w/ what you believe is a professional, well thought out answer that basically affirms that what you are doing IS the right thing. i really hope you stand back and assess this and make the right decision. DC hasn't exactly been a huge success for you based on a past thread, because you were doing great on volume as it was, then you dropped it for DC and made minimal gains. i would focus on building size right now....if you are still confused or feel like you are in limbo, consider hiring someone to assist. __________________ To save 5% on your TrueProtein.com purchase, use discount code: DAS235 -------------------------------------- SUCCESS = CONSISTENCY X TIME - Sniffy54 -------------------------------------- "Consistency can take you a log way" - Homonunculus

07-14-2007, 05:08 PM	#11
dellsguy67 Super-heavyweight Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5,072	maybe also set some core lift #'s you want to achieve.....like a 405 squat for ____ reps, deadlift for ____ reps, etc etc. __________________ To save 5% on your TrueProtein.com purchase, use discount code: DAS235 -------------------------------------- SUCCESS = CONSISTENCY X TIME - Sniffy54 -------------------------------------- "Consistency can take you a log way" - Homonunculus

07-15-2007, 12:36 AM	#12
oregonpanthers Bantamweight Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 172	Well then all said I believe the 5x5 program will begin on Monday and will continue on as long as the gains keeping showing up week after week. Th shows will thus be postponed as well. No point in 13 weeks of dieting only to place lower then hoped for and then have the rebound for any mass I did make this far. Im 22, why should I feel rushed at this point? __________________ BS, CSCS UW-La Crosse Graduate Assistant Human Performance

07-15-2007, 12:57 AM	#13
speedbacker Bantamweight Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 181	You shouldn't feel rushed at all. Take a couple years and put on a solid base of mass.

08-12-2007, 02:34 AM	#15
TheAuthor New Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 14	Concur full heartedly with the others, at 22 you're not ready. Look elsewhere to get more mass and feel for how your body responds.

08-12-2007, 06:29 AM	#16
swingslammer Lightweight Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In route and I can't fall out, Iraq Posts: 314	Man I did the math and to get down to contest shape you would have to be between 180 and 185....at 6'1" that is just too skinny at this time. Like you said you have plenty of time....if you get up there now you will be "That Guy".....as in "Did you see that guy"......no one wants to be that guy. Good luck on your process....keep us informed on how you are doing. __________________ Here to chew bubblegum and kickass....and I am all out of bubblegum......no here is another pack !! My journal..... http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=25627

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08-24-2007, 08:50 PM	#17
viking1 New Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 56	You need more mass, lfor your height and your long arms and legs you need another 30lbs. to be competative.

08-28-2007, 12:12 PM	#18
oregonpanthers Bantamweight Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 172	I am going to swallow my pride real hard and take heed to all this advice and get my ass of the stage and in the gym or at the table for a few years. Come back at 25 when I am at my physical prime with more muscle, more thickness and more density. Things I sadly lack right now. 5 years of dieting for weight class based sports really put me a few years behind to just jump right into bodybuilding. Gonna back track and do what should have been done in the start. Sadly I have this god awfull fear of getting fat as hell and losing all my cuts and what not wich then tarnishes my image as a personal trainer and all. More bull shit then anything, all in my head mostly. But as you all know, we tend to be our own worst enemy and greatest obstacle. As a note I am and have been on a 5x5 Bill Starr power lifting routine for 8 weeks now this week. Its all so much different then any other program I have done before that was bodybuilder oriented. Its kicking my ass but its working. My strength has never been so high before and its never improved so fast. I like! __________________ BS, CSCS UW-La Crosse Graduate Assistant Human Performance

10-01-2007, 01:04 AM	#19
btech Light-heavyweight Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Shanghai, CN Posts: 1,182	oregonpanthers - it's kinda hard to tell, but i'd be willing to bet that after some serious growing, you'd have some kickass wheels.

02-06-2008, 02:24 AM	#20
mattogus New Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 6	im completely late but mass it up !

02-11-2008, 11:25 PM	#21
oregonpanthers Bantamweight Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 172	7 weeks of work So after 7 weeks of offseason training and mass eating this is what I have to show for it. Dec 24th 2007 to Feb 9th 2008 208lbs-17% to 198lbs-13% (both done by dexa scan) 6'1'' 23 years old __________________ BS, CSCS UW-La Crosse Graduate Assistant Human Performance

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